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cannot do even 3 pull ups, are you kidding me?

 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: cannot do even 3 pull ups, are you kidding me? Reply with quote

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/marines-female-fitness-plan_n_4533020.html

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pullups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs.

The delay rekindled sharp debate in the military on the question of whether women have the physical strength for some military jobs, as service branches move toward opening thousands of combat roles to them in 2016.

Although no new timetable has been set on the delayed physical requirement, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to "continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, said Thursday.

Starting with the new year, all female Marines were supposed to be able to do at least three pullups on their annual physical fitness test and eight for a perfect score. The requirement was tested in 2013 on female recruits at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, S.C., but only 45 percent of women met the minimum, Krebs said.

The Marines had hoped to institute the pullups on the belief that pullups require the muscular strength necessary to perform common military tasks such as scaling a wall, climbing up a rope or lifting and carrying heavy munitions.

Officials felt there wasn't a medical risk to putting the new standard into effect as planned across the service, but that the risk of losing recruits and hurting retention of women already in the service was unacceptably high, she said.

Because the change is being put off, women will be able to choose which test of upper-body strength they will be graded on in their annual physical fitness test. Their choices:

—Pullups, with three the minimum. Three is also the minimum for male Marines, but they need 20 for a perfect rating.

—A flexed-arm hang. The minimum is for 15 seconds; women get a perfect score if they last for 70 seconds. Men don't do the hang in their test.


Officials said training for pullups can change a person's strength, while training for the flex-arm hang does little to adapt muscular strength needed for military tasks

The delay on the standard could be another wrinkle in the plan to begin allowing women to serve in jobs previously closed to them such as infantry, armor and artillery units.

The military services are working to figure out how to move women into newly opened jobs and have been devising updated physical standards, training, education and other programs for thousands of jobs they must open Jan. 1, 2016, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nathan Christensen, a Defense Department spokesman. They must open as many jobs to women as possible; if they decide to keep some closed, they must explain why.

Military brass has said repeatedly that physical standards won't be lowered to accommodate female applicants. Success for women in training for the upcoming openings has come in fits and starts.

In fall 2012, only two female Marines volunteered for the 13-week infantry officers training course at Quantico, Va., and both failed to complete it.

But the following fall, three Marines became the first women to graduate from the Corps' enlisted infantry training school in North Carolina. They completed the same test standards as the men in the course, which included a 12-mile march with an 80-pound pack and various combat fitness trials such as timed ammunition container lifts and tests that simulate running under combat fire.

Officials had added specific training for female recruits when the pullup requirement was announced in December 2012, and they came up with a workout program for women already serving.

Military testing for physical skill and stamina has changed over the decades with needs of the armed forces. Officials say the first recorded history of Marine Corps physical fitness tests, for example, was 1908 when President Theodore Roosevelt ordered that staff officers must ride horseback 90 miles and line officers walk 50 miles over a three-day period to pass. A test started in 1956 included chinups, pushups, broad jump, 50-yard duck waddle and running.

The first test for women was started in 1969: A 120-yard shuttle run, vertical jump, knee pushups, 600-yard run/walk and situps.



Oh come on, I'm in my 50's and at least 30 lbs overweight, and I can do at least 3 pull ups.

Also in the article, only 3 women in 2 years have managed to pass the infantry officers course. This bodes <sarcasm> real well</sarcasm> for the armed forces.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why anyone would think it's acceptable for someone serving in a volunteer military to not be able to do three pull-ups is beyond me.

Male or female, you should be able to do multiple pull-ups with all your gear on.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well they allow women to have lower scores to be cops and firemen.

screams sheer stupidity to allow these things.

but if I believe that I must hate women, right?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess as long as they arent going into combat then it matters less.

When I went to Basic training we busted the women during the 20 mile full pack march. The men were carrying around 50 lbs. The women's packs had pillows in them and their stuff was on the truck. Seems things have not changed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull ups are a great measure of someone's strength. I'd even say it's a great measure of their overall fitness. It's not just upper body strength, or the ability to lift a certain amount of weight. It's the ability to get your body moving in a way that's relevant to many real-world applications. Body weight exercises should be the bare minimum requirement (for *all* of us, not merely soldiers!). If you can't lift your own body, how are your fellow soldiers supposed to depend upon you to help them? Can you imagine being shot and need to be carried off the field by someone who can't do more than three pull ups? PC-ism can literally kill us. No one has a place in combat who is physically unfit, whether they are male or female.

20 pull ups would be tough. There's no way I could get a perfect score right now (hey, give me a few months ... we're kicking our workouts into high gear now that the holidays are over). But 10-15 would be no problem.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
PC-ism can literally kill us. No one has a place in combat who is physically unfit, whether they are male or female.
Completely agree. If you want to be treated as an equal, then standards need to be equal.

Last edited by lorin on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, 3 pull-ups is the required minimum for males too? Like Z, I tend to think it's one of the most crucial "exercises" you should be able to do. Lifting your own body weight is probably the most essential "real world" fitness ability. It can literally save your life.

Of course, as a climber its a pretty important thing to be able to do too. In years of climbing I've seen it over and over again..."gym strong" is not the same as what I refer to as "practical" strength.

Anyway, 10 should be the bare minimum for anybody, let alone Marines.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few quick notes: first, having been there done that I'd rather be in a tough spot with a smart person with minimum PT scores than a PT killer with the minimum ASVAB scores.

and: I don't think they have a pull-ups problem, they have a training philosophy and technique problem.

and: who says a pull-up is a great measure of over-all conditioning/strength?
I sure don't.
[on a parallel...the marines only require 28min. for a 3 mile run last I knew...9:20 per mile?...for god's sake that's barely faster than a brisk walk. Folk are worried they won't be able to lift some wounded-ones body, but it doesn't matter that they can only move at turtle-like speeds?]

and: is it ok to have age-based score variations? [cuz the army does...or did, last I knew, don't know about the Corp. Hey....how many pull-ups do you think the Joint Chief's can do?....there's a famous photo of Gen's Powell and Schwarzkopf sitting on a couch back in 90 or 92-ish. How many do you think THOSE heavy middle-aged dudes could have done? Schw. looked like he'd been a hefty dude for most of his life, I wonder if he could have done any pull-ups when he was 30...]

I don't think it means anything important...and if it DOES they should have the data that proves it, and they should fix their training system.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't do 10 pull-ups, you can't drag unconscious me out of harm's way. I don't give two shits what your ASVAB score was.

Pull-ups are (along with push-ups) about the best indicator of real strength out there.

Anyone out there with 2 weeks of preparation can blow away the candy-assed USMC physical requirements.....They're pathetic. I'm 45 years old and have a ton of broken bones and scar tissue, and I can still bust 3 miles over uneven terrain in 20 minutes, crank out 10 pull-ups, and do hundreds of push-ups and crunches.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is simply a fact of our anatomical construction that in general males have larger muscle mass and are physically stronger than females. Sure, some women can outperform most men but for the most part this is not the case.

Gender equality would necessitate only one set of standards required to pass a physical strength test for combat readiness. Either you meet or surpass the standards are you are approved or you do not; there should never be two standards. Okay, so maybe Jenny always dreamed of being a front-line soldier and she just can't pass the physical test--too bad. I wanted to be an astronaut and that didn't pan out, either. My advice to Jenny would be "don't box yourself in to only one career for yourself".

I'm with Cail--if you cannot drag or carry my unconscious and bleeding body out of the line of fire then I don't want you at my six.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is why they need to change the requirements now. Prior to last year, Females were not put in combat situations. Now that doesnt mean that combat wouldnt find them but it did mean they werent send directly into combat. So the chances of them needing to pull anyones body anywhere was unlikely.

But I see to recall they have since changed that and by 2016 females can and will be sent into combat. Due to that change they should be able to pass more rigerous PFT scores.

BTW - My son is a Marine and his Gunny Sgt breaks one off in them if they cant break a 20 min 3 mile and do at least 15 pull ups. So although those are the required minimums, they are really just a starting place.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Just a few quick notes: first, having been there done that I'd rather be in a tough spot with a smart person with minimum PT scores than a PT killer with the minimum ASVAB scores.

and: I don't think they have a pull-ups problem, they have a training philosophy and technique problem.

and: who says a pull-up is a great measure of over-all conditioning/strength?
I sure don't.
[on a parallel...the marines only require 28min. for a 3 mile run last I knew...9:20 per mile?...for god's sake that's barely faster than a brisk walk. Folk are worried they won't be able to lift some wounded-ones body, but it doesn't matter that they can only move at turtle-like speeds?]

and: is it ok to have age-based score variations? [cuz the army does...or did, last I knew, don't know about the Corp. Hey....how many pull-ups do you think the Joint Chief's can do?....there's a famous photo of Gen's Powell and Schwarzkopf sitting on a couch back in 90 or 92-ish. How many do you think THOSE heavy middle-aged dudes could have done? Schw. looked like he'd been a hefty dude for most of his life, I wonder if he could have done any pull-ups when he was 30...]

I don't think it means anything important...and if it DOES they should have the data that proves it, and they should fix their training system.


It may not be, but there has to be some physical standard to measure by, and being able to pull up your own body weight seems pretty fair to me, especially as women generally are 30% lighter than most men. So if they cannot pull up 130lbs, how the hell can they pull a 170lb man plus gear anywhere? Oh yeah, and force march for 30 miles carrying 60+ pounds of gear like a two legged mule.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/why-pull-ups-are-harder-for-women

Pull ups are pretty hard for me. I'm not over weight and I think I'm in fairly good shape but I'm fighting the past 20+ years of being lazy!
I got a pull up bar a few months ago and I could barely do one.
I'm 45 now, when I was 18 I could do what my nostalgia memory tells me was about 50..... all one handed..... Sad
Almost every day I do a few and now I can do 4 or 5 real ones in a row.

Chin ups on the other hand are easier.

Pull-ups. Palms facing away. Less biceps, more back. Harder.
Chin-ups. Palms facing you. Work your biceps more. Easier.


Just a reminder that there is a difference.
Also these exercises along with push ups are cheap/free and awesome for your body.
Also do planking for your core.
I thought planking was kinda silly until I did it all the time.
Now I do spiderman planks which looks ridiculous but I can really feel it. Very Happy
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