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Do you think LORD FOUL was careless?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Do you think LORD FOUL was careless? Reply with quote

Do you think LORD FOUL was careless?
Specifically with his armies. I realize that Foul had nothing but contempt for all living things including his own forces but it seemed to me that LF spent the hordes of Cavewights, Ur-viles, Kresh and Illearthstone warped creatures with a reckless abandon that depleted his resources rather quickly. The New Lords, though made weaker than the Lords of old due to the Oath of Peace, acquitted themselves remarkably well given the circumstances they were presented with and contributed greatly to the outcome of the battles depicted in the Chrons. Hile Troy managed the warward with ingenuity and guile in spite of the vast numbers of his enemy but Foul had an overwhelming force at his disposal. With his demigod-like power LF should have been able to advise his Giant-Raver not to cross into Garrotting Deep no matter how he was goaded to do so. Fouls approach reminded me of Zap Branagan from Futurama. He was famous for sending wave after wave of his troops against the rampaging killbots knowing that the bots had a pre set kill limit. Once that limit was reached the killbots would shut down. Kind of expensive way to win a battle.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post (liked the Futurama reminder. heheheh)
However, I don't think he was careless so much as over-confident. A fine line difference, I realize. But really, when you look at it from his stand-point, there is really no way the good-guys should have won. They should have been overwhelmed utterly.
And having said that, and having been defeated in the first Chrons, it goes without saying that Fould learned, and devised a 'better' plan.
And still in the 3Chrons, he goes even further: less brute might and more insideous machinations to bring about utter despair in those that bring utter ruin....
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foul wasn't really trying to win a war. He was trying to get the defenders of the Land to despair. Specifically, Covenant. Everything was about getting the ring. What does he care if he captures some geography? He wants to escape his prison, not rule it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Additionally, Foul had a truly staggering amount of forces at his disposal. He wasn't really being careless in spending them. (If you don't use up an army, it will eventually die to an old age, with you having to feed it all the while, and what's the use in that?) It's not like he valued their lives anyway. In TPTP there's a quote about how the attacks on Revelstone set into a pattern so that the losses match the new arrivals.

As for The Illearth War, the Pyrrhic victory of the good guys was really unexpected all things considered and relied crucially on Hile Troy's brain (which may have be overestimated by himself - he certainly wasn't good with safety margins - but still was way better in those matters than the people of the Land). Foul wasn't familiar with him and thus couldn't anticipate his plans. The rest of it could be chalked up to the Ravers being consistently far more emotional than what's good for them. Unfortunately for Foul, he just doesn't have a big selection in potential powerful henchmen semi-trustworthy enough to be given command of an army.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good posts folks. Nothing to add in fact. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Malik on this one -- I think the main point is, Foul wasn't mainly focused on trying to win the ground war, he had larger goals of breaking the arch of time; He was merely trying to cause TC and the Lords to despair. He wanted TC's ring, so he was trying to take away all other options so TC would confront him, and then he could take the ring.

He had no reason to try to spare losses or worry about casualties among his army at all -- they were nothing, a means to an end, a resource to be used as he saw fit, with no attachement or obligation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 wrote:
Foul wasn't really trying to win a war. He was trying to get the defenders of the Land to despair. Specifically, Covenant. Everything was about getting the ring. What does he care if he captures some geography? He wants to escape his prison, not rule it.


Agree with malik here. Maybe he was careless..but not out of stupidty. It was more because he didn't give a hoot. He wanted the rign and was focused on IT. Not Garroting deep.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys. How hard would it have been to send an email to Fleshharrower?

"Dude,
Stay the heck out of Garroting Deep or so help me.....
Lots of Love,
LF"
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL. Unfortunately, after the fall of Doriendor Corishev, the telecom providers stopped maintaining their cell towers and email didn't work between Doom's Retreat and Garrotting Deep.

Other that that, I agree w/ Malik too. Foul's only purpose was to manipulate everyone so that he could get the ring, or get someone else to break the Arch. In LFB he was willing to give the Staff to the Lords because it would get him the Illearth Stone, which he knew he could use to intensify his assault. In both TIW and TPTP he put pressure on the Lords so they would summon TC, and once there, to continue the pressure to try to get TC to break. As has been said, he's shifted his means in the 2nd and 3rd Chrons, but his purpose appears to the be same... to make the ring-bearer fall to utter despair. MWA-HA-HA-HA Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LOL. Unfortunately, after the fall of Doriendor Corishev, the telecom providers stopped maintaining their cell towers and email didn't work between Doom's Retreat and Garrotting Deep.


nope. he just ran out of WGD and forgot to pay his bill. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you mean Mhoram didn't need to use the lomillialor? Boy, is he gonna be pissed!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foul is an arrogant batard aswell. He probably didn't think the Lords could win unless TC used the white gold in a serious 'Arch breaking' kinda way.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, Foul was just manipulating things to get the ring.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Do you think LORD FOUL was careless? Reply with quote

LORD FOUL'S BRAIN wrote:
With his demigod-like power LF should have been able to advise his Giant-Raver not to cross into Garrotting Deep no matter how he was goaded to do so.


IMO Foul didn't have instantaneous communication with the Ravers. He didn't anticipate that the Warward would retreat to Garroting Deep.

He sent out an invincible army, and trusted Flesharrower to win with it.

Foul would have seen Doom's Retreat as a(n attritional) victory.

I guess the moral of the story is that you shouldn't give over your Armies to the control of insane psychopaths who have a pathological hatred of the only thing that can possibly defeat them. (ie Forestals)

I know I will remember this lesson the next time I find myself in the position of being an evil overlord. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm under the assumption that Foul very well had some form of remote communication with his generals via the Illearth stone - but I doubt they "radioed" in every tactical manoeuvre (such as pursuing the Warward into Garrotting Deep). Maybe on a more strategic level, e.g. "Revelwood destroyed" in TPTP.

I don't think there's anything specific to this in the text, but we know it's possible in principle (lomilliar communication).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LORD FOUL'S BRAIN wrote:
Come on guys. How hard would it have been to send an email to Fleshharrower?

"Dude,
Stay the heck out of Garroting Deep or so help me.....
Lots of Love,
LF"


I bet he did send one, but Fleshharrower probably had his spam filter turned up to high and didn't get it Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Fleshharrower committed accidental suicide.

Quote:
He howled imprecations after them, vowing that he would pursue them to the death.


Vows are a serious thing in the Land. When the army he was pursuing went to Garroting Deep, Fleshharrower had to follow or break his vow. As for the relationship between the fact that he had made a vow and his single-minded determination, it's hard to separate cause and effect. I think probably the determination caused the vow and the vow in turn reinforced the determination.

The whole sequence is a fine example of the traps that being an impulsive Chaotic Evil type can lead you into.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did't LF phophesise to Covenant in LFB that his total dominion of the Land would be in 47 years? (sorry i can't remember the quote) As the Illearth War was 40 years later maybe LF knew this wasn't the time for complete victory. I felt the whole purpose of the war was to drive the Lords to do do something reckless and either break or lose the Staff of Law in the process, thus removing a thorn in his side as well as a possible weapon should TC turn against him.
If you look at some of what LF got out of the Illearth War: 1 Control of the Staff 2 Destruction of any attacking capability of the Warward - then the loss of the stone warped creatures that made up his army would have been an acceptable use of his resources.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post. And welcome to the Watch.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this is where my brain has been. Making topics in the TC forum!
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