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TC's last words
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: TC's last words Reply with quote

Okay, so what does everyone think he means by 'oh Linden, what have you done?


I think it could be something as simple as letting despite into her heart and everyone can see it except her.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linden is closed to the people of the Land. She's from the outside. Even to Linden, the Roger was closed to her.

So many ways to interprete what TC is saying.
If TC doesn't remember being dead, it takes a whole different meaning(s).

If TC remembers being dead, it can be a whole myrid of meaning(s).

It appaers that Covenant doesn't fully realize what Linden done herself.

Or if he does know, then he is approaching the problem as we remember Thomas Covenant.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that "What have you done?" is the horse-riding Covenant of this book.

It could be anything. The only thing I'm sure if is that it won't mean what we could possible ever imagine it means.

Covenant said "Find me". Then, when she found him, dead in Andelain, he was compelled to be able to do nothing as he was. So I'm pretty sure that resurrecting Covenant in and of itself is not the problem - he was pretty much asking her to do it.

Assuming that this Covenant is the real Covenant. HE MAY NOT BE! The clue: Dead Covenant in Andelain could not speak; yet he had been speaking to her earlier.

Did Linden do something that Covenant would not approve of? I can't think of anything.

Wouldn't it suck if Covenant's next words were, "Why did you give Joan that ring?" or something as inane as that.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Wouldn't it suck if Covenant's next words were, "Why did you give Joan that ring?" or something as inane as that.

Oh, that's good. Hysterical
I never thought of that... wouldn't it be awesome if you ended up being right about that one, Wayfriend? Shocked Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

,,,as a " cliff hanger" the question is a goodie. Yet ,, like most cliff hangers,,what seems obvious , often is misleading. With that thought in mind..consider,,that Linden DID something on Her OWN, is the important here,,and the WHAT is secondary.. WHAT is LINDENS creation, HER DOING,,The TRUTH of IT is Hers to FIND and Adhere to, or not. But,, That she did Something On Her OWN is The KEY.

I mean.. she brought TC down from his lofty position overseeing heaven and earth,,,Take that TC and Lord Foul, don't start licking your chops yet..a mind that can do that to TC,,is capable,, has found the access and ability,, to do anything imaginable and unimaginable. So now is Not the time to start making assumptions.

There is a beauty in ending the book with that question,,a mystery to stay with us for a few years, perhaps longer. Again, i bring into the perspective ,, the surreal. " Mystery" is a major tenet of Surrealism. The Unknown is what one enters into ,when exploring ones Imagination. So with that question, SRD leaves us with a challenge, a beautiful challenge.

Now.. another major tenet of Surrealism is..to be unencumbered,, free of weights and measure, prejudices, etc,,when entering into ones Imagination..Thats the difficult,, cause we habitually want to access our education, memories, experience, etc etc and bring those along with us during our stroll thru the Imaginative gardens. I suspect, SRD will eventually challenge us accordingly.

" Linden, What have You Done?!",,,She has dared us to do the same.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Assuming that this Covenant is the real Covenant. HE MAY NOT BE! The clue: Dead Covenant in Andelain could not speak; yet he had been speaking to her earlier.

Through anele, anyway. The dead in andelian generally were unable to speak in this book, right? So TC was just bound by the rules all the dead in andelian were. That being said, I'm curious as to why the dead are unable to speak NOW when they were able to in the 2nd chronicles.

But perhaps there is a distinction between "covenant's shade" and "covenant who's part of the arc of time." But that girl elohim doesn't seem to think so.
Quote:

Wouldn't it suck if Covenant's next words were, "Why did you give Joan that ring?" or something as inane as that.

"Why didn't you give roger my ring?!"
"Why didn't you become the Harrow's companion?"
"Why the hell is lytton such an asshole!?" (I'm worried you guys might have forgotten).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is a beauty in ending the book with that question,,a mystery to stay with us for a few years, perhaps longer.


Beautifully stated lurch.
I agree.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety wrote:
Quote:
Assuming that this Covenant is the real Covenant. HE MAY NOT BE! The clue: Dead Covenant in Andelain could not speak; yet he had been speaking to her earlier.

Through anele, anyway. The dead in andelian generally were unable to speak in this book, right? So TC was just bound by the rules all the dead in andelian were. That being said, I'm curious as to why the dead are unable to speak NOW when they were able to in the 2nd chronicles.


The book implies that the dead were somehow commanded by someone (maybe Infelice or Covenant himself, but we cannot know) not to influence Linden one way or the other; my impression is that they knew what she had come to do (i.e. resurrect Covenant) and they were supposed not to sway her one way or the other because she was to be free to make her own choices. Why? Because, as the Creator told once to Covenant, leaving her free to do the choice she wants, whether to succumb to despair or rise above it, is the only way to ensure her freedom, and the necessity of freedom is the only way she can't be made into a useless tool. So Infelice tries to warn her, but never states the problem outright; Covenant, too, cannot tell Linden anything until the crisis is over (that is, until Linden resurrects him or definitely decides not to do it).

It is entirely likely that either Covenant's "find me" was meant to bring her to the point of making this choice, or that by the time he told her to find him, Linden was different from the Linden who went to Andelain (maybe the Linden of Runes would not have resurrected Covenant but simply asked him for advice, but the post-EarthBlood Linden is in the throes of despair and believes obsessively that only Covenant can stop Foul). This also is implied by the book - first Covenant tells Linden to "find him", and then in FR, when Anele speaks to Linden about his parents after Linden returns from the past, he mentions that Covenant himself doesn't want Linden to come to Andelain either - presumably because she's changed and the woman she is now would likely make a colossal mistake instead of doing what is right.

In light of this, the whole "silent dead" routine in Andelain could be nothing more than a giant test to verify how far Linden is gone down the path of despair - i.e. if she still can save the Land or not.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errant idea..."Find me" refers to his physical body. There's something, some artifact, or some knowledge can be gained, at the location of his physical remains. Maybe the post-Sunbane people of the Land, pre-Masters, put them somewhere, didn't leave him under Mount Thunder.

Next wild idea from that...Pitchwife and Gossamer Glowlimm maybe took his body? it's in a kind of keepsake chest at Home? I'd love to see more about the Giants.

maybe..when they became the Masters, the Haruchai took his remains form wherever the Land's people had them when they assumed their Mastery, and they need to go to Guards Gap?

Who knows which..but i think Linden was supposed to find his remains for some reason...echoes of Second Chronicles, what you seek is not in the Land, etc., etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the "beauty" of the ending, Lurch. Do you dare to try, and risk failure? ,,, or do you become an extension of someone else's will, and forfeit choice and risk? ,,, Which serves Despite? ,,, Which serves Creation?

Xar, we have to hold out that it's possible that Linden made the right choice, although TC and even the Dead think it is the wrong one. The situation may have passed the bounds of where the wisdom of the Dead is reliable. After all, we are speaking about the End of the World. They may not be able to look beyond that point.

TC also said, "You can do this". He didn't tell her what to do, but he expressed his confidence.

That cuts both ways. You can't leave someone to make a choice, offering no help whatsoever -- and then afterwards berate them for making the wrong choice. Spouses do that, sure. Smile But would Covenant do that? I think not. In such a situation, the only valid response is, what will be will be, the choice has been made, now we must abide. Covenant might say, "Oh Linden, you could not have known." or "Oh Linden, I'm sorry, but this is what is going to happen." But emphatically NOT "Oh Linden, what did you do?"

He might as well have said, "Oh Linden, you screwed up, you idiot."

Can't see it.

Linden was supposed to find Covenant. It's no coincidence that the krill was right there when she found him. Caer Caveral upgraded her staff. Precisely so that it could do this. Which Linden had been thinking long and hard about, with the Staff in her hands, silently communicating with her what it was capable of.

She was supposed to bring Covenant back. That can't be the problem, although some might think it is, and it may look bleak for a while.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xar wrote:
maybe the Linden of Runes would not have resurrected Covenant but simply asked him for advice, but the post-EarthBlood Linden is in the throes of despair and believes obsessively that only Covenant can stop Foul


This is why I believe the last 2 books will still be all about Linden, sorry THOOLAH crew. She clearly believes only Covenant can do the job, essentially "giving up" and abdicating her responsibility. It's like she sees two jobs: 1) Save Jeremiah; 2) Save the Land. She's decided she is completely inadequate for #2, and probably can't pull off #1 on her own. If there's anything I've learned from reading SRD obsessively for 25 years it's these sort of decisions in which the main protaganist tries somehow to spare him/her self of their burdens always must ultimately prove false and the hero/heroine ends up having to pick up the pieces and find a way to succeed.

So, in my opinion, resurrecting TC is just part of Linden's story (the real low point really), not a changeover in the story to become now TC-centric the rest of the way.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC's last words could have been an expression of loss/consternation at having been removed from his station as TimeWarden.
Or it could have been a human reaction to the pain of the transition, since he had given up the corporeal long ago.

For myself, I believe it was an assertion based on his awareness of the costs of her choice. No doubt, Covenant's being brought hack to life further threatens/weakens the Laws of Life and Death. In addition, what is the cost of being removed from his direct station as TimeWarden/Arch of Time? Won't that make it easier for Joan to perforate & deteriorate Law with her caesures? Since Covenant surrendered to Foul, are his choices now tainted or somehow hampered? Even more than Sunder/Hollian, what impact/cost is there to having someone who was Dead making big choices as a living person? Has the translation of Covenant back to flesh harmed the krill's ability to ward Andelain? Doesn't that mean that Andelain is now subject to threat by Kastenessen, Esmer, Roger, Longwrath, or anyone who wishes ill will in the Heart of the Land?

...but never mind all the in-story reasons for Covenant's dismay. From an author's point of view, it is a pure and perfect hook to ensure that you don't forget to buy the next book when it comes out 2 years hence. As a reader who just a couple of hours ago finished the last chapter of FR, I am at once pi$$sed and exultant, for reasons that I can only assume that most of you can identify with.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wondering where the first place they're going to travel will be. What will the first action in AATE be? It could be that they travel to TC remains, that his physical bones hold some sort of importance now that he's back from the dead.

lurch, the positivity that you bring to virtually every argument is excellent. Dig yer perspectives. Donaldson has indeed left us with a brilliant question, poignantly delivered. A challenge. A welcomed one.

And I don't think that TC being reincarnated is the problem. Maybe the problem is that the focusing tools of power--the Staff, the white gold ring and the krill--have been altered by what Linden did. Through the intermingling of heretofore-believed antithetical powers, Linden altered both, added some Law to wild magic and some wild magic to Law. This fits with the interconnectivity of all that exists in this universe of his, a fact which seems to be leading to some big crash.

Plus, I still don't think it was TC that was speaking to Linden through her dreams and through Anele. I think it was Foul. I'd need to go back and reread her translation to the Land in Runes, but I recall her receiving images rather than words. The only words she heard were spoken by the Despiser: "Tell her I have her son." Find me, Remember that I'm dead, You can do this...sounds like she's being egged on by someone, but in an encouraging voice, TC's voice, the voice that was not allowed to he heard in Andelain.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DukkhaWaynihm

Covenant didn't surrender to Foul...he ceded Foul the ring, yes. But he made it clear that only by NOT actually opposing Foul could he defeat Foul. He didn't agree to serve, merely to give the ring.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But neither did Elena or Kevin agree to serve. Dead, however, they were compelled by the Despiser using the Illearth Stone.

Allow me to explain what I mean: what if Covenant is now (subtly or otherwise) susceptible to the Despiser as the result of his choices in Second Chronicles? Is his advice any better because he has been Dead? Or what if his advice is useless to Linden simply because the answers that work for one person are not just inadequate, but horribly misapplicable to another? I think she will find that Covenant, along with the rest of the bunch, can't tell her what to do, or take the central burden (or even the larger satellites) of her plight from her.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CT wrote:
Xar wrote:
maybe the Linden of Runes would not have resurrected Covenant but simply asked him for advice, but the post-EarthBlood Linden is in the throes of despair and believes obsessively that only Covenant can stop Foul


This is why I believe the last 2 books will still be all about Linden, sorry THOOLAH crew. She clearly believes only Covenant can do the job, essentially "giving up" and abdicating her responsibility.

It seems to have become established fact that the ring will never be entirely Linden's. (Although I have no idea why.)

That seems like justification enough to me.

TC is the only one who ever defeated Foul before, saved the Land before. Twice.

That seems like justification enough to me.

Caer Caveral fixed her staff. So that she'd be able to do it. In a sense, that's a justification, too.

Again: according to THOOLAH, it seems that Linden is damned if she acts on her own, and damned if she looks for help.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:


That cuts both ways. You can't leave someone to make a choice, offering no help whatsoever -- and then afterwards berate them for making the wrong choice. Spouses do that, sure. Smile But would Covenant do that? I think not. In such a situation, the only valid response is, what will be will be, the choice has been made, now we must abide. Covenant might say, "Oh Linden, you could not have known." or "Oh Linden, I'm sorry, but this is what is going to happen." But emphatically NOT "Oh Linden, what did you do?"



What is the exact quote?
Doesn't he says it in some emotional way like "ruefully"?
(I don't have the book in front of me sorry)
Maybe that's important.
I don't know. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..This is interesting..there is one "thing" not mentioned in all this discussion,,that is repeatedly refered to by the author,,and it is in my humble opinion,,at the center of bringing TC back...her LOVE. It is possible, just as TIME was just about a " character' in Runes and FR, and possibly will remain so,, LOVE will become a " character" or take on the quasi dimensions of being tangible.

Now is not the Time for me to go on and on about how Love sets the mind free to explore ones imagination,,because, well, seems better to let SRD do it,,but, it seems to me the set up is all there. In Lindens efforts to discover herself, her talents, potentials as well as her inadequetcies, an understanding, perhaps brought to her by Tom..of Love,,seems to me to be waiting for her..It could be bruttle for Linden. Afterall,, she loves a dead man...and that ain't healthy. Please, go back to Runes if you think Linden has had a " healthy relationship" since TC's death...There is a discovery awaiting her that will make her stick, krill and ring put together, look like a ants fart in hurricane.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all seriousness aside.

Quote:
That cuts both ways. You can't leave someone to make a choice, offering no help whatsoever -- and then afterwards berate them for making the wrong choice. Spouses do that, sure. But would Covenant do that? I think not. In such a situation, the only valid response is, what will be will be, the choice has been made, now we must abide. Covenant might say, "Oh Linden, you could not have known." or "Oh Linden, I'm sorry, but this is what is going to happen." But emphatically NOT "Oh Linden, what did you do?"


Thomas said: Oh Linden, what did you do?

Linden rises from the ground. She sees Thomas on his knees, a look of formication press upon him. Slowly walking as a paradox of white gold, she remembers him during their trial under Mt. Thunder. The Cavewrights passed and their nemesis confronting them. She remembers and raises high the Staff of Law. Her darkness explodes and she doesn't forgive. Forcefully beating Thomas around the head and shoulders she screams: "We had a date and you jilted me!! I had to stay behind and clean up that mess!! I had to fix the Sunbane! I had to fuse those two goons together. And I was the one who had to heal the Giants! And what did you do!! You just took off that ring and get fried! And now with all that I have gone through, you have to blame me!! Striking Thomas further, she occasionally says "Melenkurion Abatha!"
The Harrow and Elohim shake their heads, along with Linden companions they slowly drift into the hills.

Ok seriousness back on.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:

Linden rises from the ground. She sees Thomas on his knees, a look of formication press upon him. Slowly walking as a paradox of white gold, she remembers him during their trial under Mt. Thunder. The Cavewrights passed and their nemesis confronting them. She remembers and raises high the Staff of Law. Her darkness explodes and she doesn't forgive. Forcefully beating Thomas around the head and shoulders she screams: "We had a date and you jilted me!! I had to stay behind and clean up that mess!! I had to fix the Sunbane! I had to fuse those two goons together. And I was the one who had to heal the Giants! And what did you do!! You just took off that ring and get fried! And now with all that I have gone through, you have to blame me!! Striking Thomas further, she occasionally says "Melenkurion Abatha!"
The Harrow and Elohim shake their heads, along with Linden companions they slowly drift into the hills.


Seriously, if my wife had wild magic, a krill and a jacked-up Staff of Law, I'd hop to it if she asked me to take out the trash.
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