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What else could she have done?

 
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amonereb
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: What else could she have done? Reply with quote

So I'm a bit late to the party here but I've done my best to read around a bit. Still, I'd like to give my response to FR, which I just feel I need to get off my chest, by posng a retorical question.

What else could she have done?

I have to admit from the start that I am biased in my opinion here, because as far as I am concerned, the best thing that could have happened from a narrative point of view was for TC to be back.

Anyhow, if you could rewrite the last few pages of the the book and change what she did, what would it be.

Personally I wondered why she didn't use the power of command to take herself and her son back home. With the Krill she could have done something similar. So I'm going to suggest first off, that she could have commanded J be returned to her in Andelain, surely the safest place in the Land. I'll assume she didn't do that because she couldn't 'feel' him or 'search' for him, but for the sake of arguement, what if she had done that instead? Well, it would have shortened the story a bit I guess.

Alright, I'll have another go. How about remove Kevin's Dirt. Again, I'll assume she couldn't do it because she hasn't found the exact cause yet, however she could have tried. Removal of Kevin's Dirt would have given the land hope and removed the need for the Masters to hide the truth of the land from it's people. I actually thought this was what she might have tried doing as I read up to the final pages. I think this would have been a plausible option but would have solved nothing for her really.

Another idea I had was that she might use her power to re-inforce the law of life and death. Remake them as it were. This would have reversed the evils of past mistakes and put the Land on the road to mend. However again she'd be no nearer her goal.

Well, just to change tack here a little, I honestly think this was Linden's act of Despair, like Kevin Land Wasters and High Lord Elena, Bannor and TC's surrender of white gold to the Despiser. We are led to believe she couldn't have done any worse. In contradiction there is hope we are told as well, so I'm just going to assume the Land will not end in the gastric acids of the WOTFWE, but rather we will be faced with another book of whinging and wailing between TC and LA, to give it all some validity. I have surrendered myself to my eyes bleeding.

Other general points:

The first TC at the beginning of the story really annoyed the hellfire out of me.

The Insequent are a great invention to help faciliate many new situations which otherwise wouldn't have been believeable or possible. I really like them.

I also heart the Elohim.

Ranhyhn steak anyone?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not quite prepared to speak to your larger question, but as to how she used the Power of Command, I can say something.

The Power of Command cannot effect things from outside of the Arch. It may have not been able to free Jeremiah or extricate herself from the Land. But -- and see my current sig here -- that would totally leave the Land to a miserable fate. I believe Linden will try to save the Land.

And then there is the rebound effect of using the Power. Who knows what dire consequences might be unleashed if Kevin's Dirt is eradicated? After all, we don't even know yet if it is a bane or a boon to the people of the Land. It might very well be protecting them from something.

I think Linden made a wise choice at Earthroot. However, I think she deserved to see more truth about more things than what she received. But I think she wisely avoided the rebound effect that leads the Power to recoil on its weilder.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post. Let me respond as I may while the thoughts are still fresh like produce boughten from anywhere but Walmart.....

The Power of Command. I'm not sure if that could have been used in any of the ways that you suggested. The main reason that she just couldn't take Jeremiah and command herself back home is that, not only does is violate a Law or two (and we know what happened to Elena when she tried to use the Power of Command to break a Law) , but that Linden is pretty convinced that both her and Jeremiah were shot back at Haven Farm, so returning home only to die isn't in her best interest. Plus, the fact that Jeremiah is being fed upon by the Croyel would just make him an invalid back in the homeland.

Kevin's Dirt didn't exist back when she used the Power of Command, so there's no way that she could have used that means to rid the Land of it.

Some of the things that come to mind:

1.) What if someone ended their summons in the past, for instance, what if Linden HAD used to PoC to return home from Berek's time, would she be in the past in the "real" world?

2.) What if the PoC wasn't a one-time deal. What if Linden retains that ability to "see the truth?" Of course, she didn't see Roger's glamor back in the ETBTKS fight scene, but that's just because she wasn't looking for him. What if that ability to "See Truth" gives her the acute precision to fine tune her puissance? It seems like a waste of the Power of Command for her, to have used it to verify what she already knew in her heart of hearts, but it's presence in the present time could prove to be the best decision (and maybe the ONLY decision) that she ever made...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: What else could she have done? Reply with quote

Hi, amonereb!
amonereb wrote:
What else could she have done? ... Personally I wondered why she didn't use the power of command to take herself and her son back home.

My (often faulty, frequently questionable) impression is that she saw an immediate need for understanding, mostly focused on her son (her highest priority) but on TC as well. In other words, she knew something was wrong with TC & J and had to work through that before going further. Using the Power of Command may have been overkill given the potential consequences but wayfriend makes a good point about not pushing it too far.

amonereb wrote:
The Insequent are a great invention to help faciliate many new situations which otherwise wouldn't have been believeable or possible. I really like them.

I like the addition of the Insequent as well but I can't help but ask where they were in the 1st 6 books. Were they known in the Land (e.g. to the Lords)? It is not like a person riding around with tremendous powers of control and runes all over his pants wouldn't draw anyone's attention.

amonereb wrote:
The first TC at the beginning of the story really annoyed the hellfire out of me.

I also heart the Elohim.

Ranhyhn steak anyone?

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2. I like them too but I wouldn't loan them my car or let one date my sister.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I'm really just warming to this subject so I appreciate your consideration towards my crude attempts at making sense of all this.

I am already looking forward to sharing the emotion when the next one is released where I'm sure a lot of our questions will be answered and many more new ones will have taken their place.

When I read the lines in the last chapter where it is revealed that she brings back TC, I had a couple of instant thoughts.

The first was; Oh no, not again, this story is wash, rince, repeat... but in my heart I know that to be a false sentiment. I love to have more giants and TC back and go through all the other stuff... a big desire is to have the land back to how it was when TC first found it, with Gravelers and all. I'll freely admit that might be because I first read the books in my teens, quite a while back, and I'm harking for the good times Very Happy

The second was, why is everyone so shocked... now it's happened, it was kind of obvious (I'm not saying I already knew it, but once I'd read it, I thought, oh yeah, good idea, of course!). The consequences of her actions are unknown although many people fear them, so I can't really feel the same level of suspense as I did in Runes when Roger's TC was riding toward Revelstone.

I think I understand why she couldn't really do anything else with the PoC but what else could she have realistically done with the Krill? I think that everyone that was there had some idea of what she might try. All the powers of the land arrayed around her and no-one second guessed her correctly?

Well. thats the thing isn't it. Let's assume some of them DID know what she was going to try. They must have considered the consequences as well.

I think it's safe to assume that although it says she has woken the worm, that probably she didn't wake it too violently, and that now all she needs to do is go put it back to sleep again.

I think the only other thing she could have done was not go to the Krill and have searched for another way, by probably going to Kiril Threndor. When I put that thought in words I have to say that most of Runes and all of FR were geared to showing that she is incapable of beating Foul.

So all she could do was commit an act of despair... just what Foul wanted. Gah, SRD's a damn good writer. The more I think about it, the harder it is to break the logic of the story.

Hmm, I think I'm satisfied now... thats for anyone who read my diatribe!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The runes on Linden's staff were put there precisely to enable her to wield wild magic and Law simultaneously. The krill let her focus these antithetical powers. The effect was that reality could be reshaped according to her will. Insofar as will is an extension of mind, an expression of it, I don't think she could have done anything other than she did.

So much for her rides on her perceived need of the real TC--I don't think she ever really entertained doing anything else. I don't think her tunneled mind or hardened heart allowed her to think of any other possible use of such a power. She needs TC too much.

Nope, it happened the only way it could have happened according to all the factors which led up to her climactic action. Nothing else was possible for her.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
The runes on Linden's staff were put there precisely to enable her to wield wild magic and Law simultaneously.

BTW, good to see you around again, 'Brah!

IMO the runes represent capabilities which would otherwise require lore to master. And they gave Linden the power to raise the dead, a feat which must be done with care or else the Law would be further broken.

Why do I think this? Linden says as much.
In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
Now instinctively she understood the runes with which Caerroil Wildwood had elaborated her Staff. They were for this. The Forestal of Garroting Deep had engraved the ebony wood with his knowledge of Life and Death. Indirectly he had given her a supernal relationship with Law. For a moment, at least, his gift enabled her to commingle wild magic and Earthpower without losing control of one or falsifying the other.

... Loric's gem drew immeasurable might away from her mortal blood and nerves and bones. Caerroil Wildwood's runes imposed a kind of structure on potential chaos.

So there's a kind of Findail/Vain thing going on here. Power. And Structure.

Wildwood, I don't think, knew anything about wild magic per se. He didn't give the staff any powers related to wild magic. What he did was give Linden's staff a lore-substitute which allowed Linden to properly channel her massive power in a way that is conducive to, and not in violation of, Law. It guided her power for the task at hand. (Of which, I am sure, Wildwood knew.) It would have guided any power in the same way.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: What else could she have done? Reply with quote

amonereb wrote:
So I'm a bit late to the party here but I've done my best to read around a bit. Still, I'd like to give my response to FR, which I just feel I need to get off my chest, by posing a rhetorical question.

What else could she have done?


Her actions were acceptable but it's her motivations that are fundamentally flawed.
Big Grin

amonereb wrote:
I have to admit from the start that I am biased in my opinion here, because as far as I am concerned, the best thing that could have happened from a narrative point of view was for TC to be back.


I 100% agree.
But read the end again.
Does she bring TC back because she loves him?
It's mentioned a few times but the nail that SRD hits over and over is that she's bringing TC back because she needs him to help her find her son.
She's only using him.
She's a *user*.
She's deranged.

amonereb wrote:
Anyhow, if you could rewrite the last few pages of the the book and change what she did, what would it be.


If we had been reading all along about her love and feeling of loss over her losing TC and how she wanted him back and the ending was written in such a way that expressed those emotions then that ending would have been the most powerful and most emotionally devastating reads of my life.

amonereb wrote:
Personally I wondered why she didn't use the power of command to take herself and her son back home. With the Krill she could have done something similar. So I'm going to suggest first off, that she could have commanded J be returned to her in Andelain, surely the safest place in the Land. I'll assume she didn't do that because she couldn't 'feel' him or 'search' for him, but for the sake of arguement, what if she had done that instead? Well, it would have shortened the story a bit I guess.


She knows that she herself can't go back.
The bullet holes in her chest make that clear.
Up until the end she thought that Jeremiah might have been ok so maybe she could have Commanded him back home if such a wish could be carried out by the Earth Blood.

amonereb wrote:
Alright, I'll have another go. How about remove Kevin's Dirt.


At the time she was there there was no Kevin's Dirt. The Power of Command would have had nothing to "fix"

amonereb wrote:
Another idea I had was that she might use her power to re-inforce the law of life and death. Remake them as it were.


They were both fully in place at that time.
There was nothing to fix
I would imagine that tampering with those Laws at that time would have messed future happening up quite a bit, perhaps enough to break the Arch.

amonereb wrote:
Well, just to change tack here a little, I honestly think this was Linden's act of Despair, like Kevin Land Wasters and High Lord Elena, Bannor and TC's surrender of white gold to the Despiser.


Bannor?
TC?
I don't think that they despaired.
TC had a plan of sacrifice or acceptance not despair.
And I think Bannor just had enough and realized that the Vow was not a good thing.

amonereb wrote:
We are led to believe she couldn't have done any worse. In contradiction there is hope we are told as well, so I'm just going to assume the Land will not end in the gastric acids of the WOTFWE, but rather we will be faced with another book of whinging and wailing between TC and LA, to give it all some validity. I have surrendered myself to my eyes bleeding.


No way.
Covenant is going to make it all interesting again.
It's only interesting now in spite of Linden.
The surrounding characters and the revealed history is what's keeping my interest at this point.
Linden is like Mary in the Mary Tyler Moore show.
Mary by herself is boring, it's the funny characters that she interacts with that made the show funny.

amonereb wrote:

The first TC at the beginning of the story really annoyed the hellfire out of me.


Me too.

amonereb wrote:
The Insequent are a great invention to help facilitate many new situations which otherwise wouldn't have been believable or possible. I really like them.


Me too.

amonereb wrote:
I also heart the Elohim.


WTF? Laughing



amonereb wrote:
Ranhyhn steak anyone?


You bastard!! Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: What else could she have done? Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
But read the end again.
Does she bring TC back because she loves him?
It's mentioned a few times but the nail that SRD hits over and over is that she's bringing TC back because she needs him to help her find her son.
She's only using him.
She's a *user*.
She's deranged.

Now you're really harshing on poor Linden! ... "Using him"?!?!

Did Covenant "use" the Giants of the Search? Did he "use" the Haruchai? "use" the waynhim rhysh? Memla? Foamfollower?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he did. That's what makes him such a heartless bastard, and we love him anyway Smile

Anyway, I would argue that if Linden brought back TC because she loved and missed him, then *that* would have been despair. She's not doing this because she's pining over her lost boyfriend.

Rather, she honestly believed that she had no other choice; noone with any power would help her or tell her anything, so she was basically left on her own. She needed someone she believed to be powerful who would aid her.
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