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Lord Mhoram and Satanfist
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Wayfriend on this point. I'd just assumed that the non-contact "radiation" attack was just the best defence method the Raver could come up with in the circumstances.
Why was it better than bringing the stone down on Mhoram's head (in the way that KinSlaughterer did to the Giants)? I don't know, but one idea is that somehow if he had brought the stone into direct contact with Mhoram at the point at which Mhoram had the Krill embedded deep within the Giant it would have unleashed any almighty eruption of power (krill + stone) that would have rendered anything close (let alone in contact) to pieces...
The "radiation attack", by contrast, was an attempt to negate the power of Mhoram/Krill, whilst feeding strength to the Raver.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
samadhi just never anticipated Mhoram would have enough power to do him in. He assumed that he'd be like any other Lord, and that he'd be able to use this radiation magic to stop Mhoram long before Mhoram could do enough damage to kill him.

Perhaps if he had known that Mhoram had learned a knowledge of power recently, he might have chosen another tactic. Or maybe that was the best tactic that there was, and Mhoram surpassed it anyways.


While I agree that the way the Raver resisted may have been a good one (though likely it's a matter that this form of resistance was simply more exciting for the reader than just squishing Mhoram) I can't agree that samadhi would be dim enough not to understand that Mhoram was dangerous. Mhoram succeeded because he did the unexpected and the outright insane, not because the Raver failed. Power to power, the might of the Ritual was just too strong for a Raver and the Stone.

As for hesitating, the Raver did, but probably not in the way people are thinking. His hesitation gave Mhoram an opening, it didn't stop him from hurting Mhoram after Mhoram used the opening.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Barnetto,

When I began this thread I knew my viewpoint was flimsy, to say the least: Trell, coming back from the abyss to aid Mhoram against Satanfist! Insane...off the page...no way, no how.
All I had was the mere glimmer of hope from the idea that Trell saved Mithil Stonedown from a drought using a piece of orcrest, (which may well be the same kind of stone set in Loric's Krill).

I don't think that really matters now. Trell may have quickly dwindled and died before Mhoram and the Warward had even rode out to meet Foul's army.

What does matter, to me at least, is that Trell managed to pass on his secret knowledge to Tohrm. rhadhamearl knowledge.

This tells me that the Krill was never designed for a Lord to use. This was a rhadhamearl tool. That's why it burnt the flesh from Mhoram's hands. To Mhoram it was just a knife like any other knife; but just as deadly, especiallly in the hands of someone like Lord Mhoram.

I think there's a fine line here between the two powers.

What surprises me most of all, is that having read through those nine or so paragraphs, for the life of me I can't remember that Mhoram had faded away before he erupted into pure Earthpower. Somehow, that sentence just didn't register with me.
The only other time I can remember that fading thing happening is when the Quest for the Staff of Law reached Warrenbridge.

So for now I'll stick with the rhadhamearl idea of how the Earthpower was released through the Krill. My viewpoint was always on Trell from the very start and for now can't find an answer as to how Mhoram bridged the gap.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
Yes, it is. But I wanted to focus more on wether or not Mhoram was receiving some extra help.

Ah.

I don't think he did. In fact, I think it would be dentrimental to the narrative.

Of course, you could consider the re-awakening of the krill to be help, if you like. Of a divine providence kind.

But we know, going into this scene, that the krill is "a weapon strong enough to bear any might." But no one could weild it, no one could withdraw it from the stone, until they had the power requisite to do so.

When Mhoram learns his knowledge of power, he now has enough might to withdraw the blade from the stone. He has achieved a new level.

But then the power of the krill is withdrawn for a while. Mhoram is left with only his staff as an instrument with which to channel his might. And it is an insufficient instrument. So he has his knowledge of power, his new level of might, but he has no real way to use it to the fullest.

When the krill is, at the last moment, re-awakened, restored to Mhoram's use - finally, all the pieces are together. This is his first chance to use his knowledge and this better instrument together. And the passion is there, for it is the heat of the battle, and the life of the Land is at stake. And no Oath would, at that time, allow that the Giant Raver should live.

It's a culmination.

No, Mhoram didn't get any help. That would take credit away from Mhoram, suck the importance out of the event. This was the "new" new Lord, serving the Land, articulating his passion and his will through a remarkable weapon into the heart of evil. And winning.

That's why it's Lord Mhoram's victory. And no one elses. It wouldn't be his victory if he had gotten help.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a wee quibble here

'Lord Mhoram's Victory' is a painting in the Hall of Gifts.
I think it's main purpose was to show that Elena was absent from the action taking place and that...mmm!

Yeah, OK. Good point.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
'Lord Mhoram's Victory' is a painting in the Hall of Gifts.

It's also the name of chapter 15, which is the chapter that contains the scenes we are discussing.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:

All I had was the mere glimmer of hope from the idea that Trell saved Mithil Stonedown from a drought using a piece of orcrest, (which may well be the same kind of stone set in Loric's Krill)...

What does matter, to me at least, is that Trell managed to pass on his secret knowledge to Tohrm. rhadhamearl knowledge.

This tells me that the Krill was never designed for a Lord to use. This was a rhadhamearl tool. That's why it burnt the flesh from Mhoram's hands. To Mhoram it was just a knife like any other knife; but just as deadly, especiallly in the hands of someone like Lord Mhoram.


I hadn't really thought of the combination of gem and metal in Loric's Krill as being related to "rhadhamaerl" lore. I just thought of that as "stone lore"? And wouldn't the Lords have entrusted the research of the Krill into the hands of the Hearthrall and Gravalingas if they had suspected that the power in the Krill was related to "rhadhamaerl" lore as opposed to investing all their own time in it? (Though they could just have missed the relationship.)

But I think that the fact that the Krill was intrinsically linked to the Seven Wards of Kevin is indicative of the fact that it was more likely to have been intended for a Lord's use than that of a Gravalingas. And it was (I'm assuming) forged by Loric, an Old Lord.

Wasn't the reawakening of the Krill and Trell's ritual of desecration simply a happy coincidence? The indications were that the lighting of the Krill's gem signified TC's return, not that Trell's use of lore had awakened it? (As it did in TIW.)

Trell is undoubtedly the most acute victim in the First Chronicles, but I think SRD was right not to find some redemption for him. At the end of the day, stories do tend to have a degree more weight about them if not everyone comes out of the mill intact....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Krazy Kat wrote:
'Lord Mhoram's Victory' is a painting in the Hall of Gifts.

It's also the name of chapter 15, which is the chapter that contains the scenes we are discussing.


My quibble was only that the chapter heading is in inverted commas which suggest the painting and not Mhoram actually killing Satanfist. Mhoram also still has his staff so he hadn't yet cracked open the Giant's skull.
[I don't care how big the Giant was, that's gotta hurt. He would have been seeing stars for weeks after that Smile ]

At first I thought the painting showed Mhoram wielding the Staff of Law, but on a second look it doesn't say that. Pity. I guess Ahanna was far more accurate than I initially gave her credit for.



Barnetto wrote:

I hadn't really thought of the combination of gem and metal in Loric's Krill as being related to "rhadhamaerl" lore. I just thought of that as "stone lore"? And wouldn't the Lords have entrusted the research of the Krill into the hands of the Hearthrall and Gravalingas if they had suspected that the power in the Krill was related to "rhadhamaerl" lore as opposed to investing all their own time in it? (Though they could just have missed the relationship.)


It just seems obvious that the krill is related to stone-lore simply because it was set into the stone table with relative ease and without breaking. And also my assumption that the stone in the hilt is orcrest. Bannor showed Covenant how to use orcrest to light the way out of Earthroot, so this could make it probable IMO.

Quote:

But I think that the fact that the Krill was intrinsically linked to the Seven Wards of Kevin is indicative of the fact that it was more likely to have been intended for a Lord's use than that of a Gravalingas. And it was (I'm assuming) forged by Loric, an Old Lord.


Amok was confused by the krill's awakening.

It's possible that the Second Ward was supposed to show the way to the Third Ward, the heels of the Staff of Law, as revealed in The Wounded Land. But this get's mind-bendingly confusing to me. Maybe Kevin just never anticipated someone like Elena being in the Land...I'm not sure.

Maybe Kevin's intentions were to make sure that the Wards were to be distributed throughout the Land to the differant races, equally. To be shared. Each race had their specific lore and speciality.



Quote:

Wasn't the reawakening of the Krill and Trell's ritual of desecration simply a happy coincidence? The indications were that the lighting of the Krill's gem signified TC's return, not that Trell's use of lore had awakened it? (As it did in TIW.)


This is where the thread started. I think Trell figured it out for himself. But he saw that they were out of time, on the brink of defeat by Foul's army. He couldn't be in two places at once. So he opened up the Earthpower in the graveling pit, and paid the terrible price for it. I see his act as a form of suicide, but with purpose, to give the Land a chance to survive. It was his cryptic rallying call to the rhadhamearl.

It could be that the krill responds to white gold, not nesesserily Covenant. He was still in the Land when the light went out. When he recovered his ring the light went back on.
I see a connection here between the white gold ring and the Earthpower in the graveling - with both connected with the Ritual of Desecration.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The krill incorporates some stone-lore, but stone-lore alone is insufficient to access its full potential [stone and wood lore are specialties within earthpower/lore of the Lords].

It is a product of the Old Lord's lore, and that is why Amok was confused: it was not awakened by that lore, it was awakened by wild magic.

Unless my memory is seriously flawed, the heels of the Staff of Law have nothing to do with the Seven Wards, the staff wasn't broken till long after the Seven Wards were created.

The wards were not meant to be found/used by races, they were meant to be found/used by those with the broader/deeper knowledge of lore the Lords studied/used, I think.

And I'm unsure of a connection between wild magic and earthpower [if I'm reading you correctly] for a number of reasons, one being that using earthpower to destroy requires effort and at least some lore, while it requires effort NOT to destroy with wild magic. Also, even total desecration would only lead to a lifeless world with LF trapped in it. Wild magic can free LF, but will make the existence of the world itself impossible.

But, more on topic: I think the hesitation was simply the Raver's moment of recognition "Holy Crap, this guy might shred me! Should I run, or stand?"...and the realization that running was not an option.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
It could be that the krill responds to white gold, not nesesserily Covenant. He was still in the Land when the light went out. When he recovered his ring the light went back on.

I'm not sure exactly what triggered the light of the krill to fade, perhaps when Covenant lost his ring. But the ring never left the land. Later, it gleamed with emerald, which must be when Dead green Elena had the ring. But Covenant was never controlled by the Illearth Stone at that time. Covenant is the white gold -- it must be responding to both, or to their relationship, rather than one or the other.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat, you sure have some unique ideas about the story. I respect your views, and it's certainly your right to air them...but I have to say your line of reasoning has lost me. Again, no offense intended. But don't mind me. Have fun with this discussion anyway! Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
It just seems obvious that the krill is related to stone-lore simply because it was set into the stone table with relative ease and without breaking. And also my assumption that the stone in the hilt is orcrest. Bannor showed Covenant how to use orcrest to light the way out of Earthroot, so this could make it probable IMO.

I can't agree that the krill is much related to stone-lore. It is a tool and weapon capable of channeling any power, from Mharam's power to wild magic. It was the wild magic flowing through the blade that made it pierce the table. Remember, the blade was impossible to remove until Mhoram came to terms with the power of the Ritual. If the stone in the hilt was orcrest I would think the experts in Revelstone would have been able to recognize it.
Krazy Kat wrote:
Amok was confused by the krill's awakening.

It's possible that the Second Ward was supposed to show the way to the Third Ward, the heels of the Staff of Law, as revealed in The Wounded Land. But this get's mind-bendingly confusing to me. Maybe Kevin just never anticipated someone like Elena being in the Land...I'm not sure.

Maybe Kevin's intentions were to make sure that the Wards were to be distributed throughout the Land to the differant races, equally. To be shared. Each race had their specific lore and speciality.

The Lords make it pretty clear that the Wards were to be found in sequence, after the first, which was brought back by the Giants. The second was under Mt. Thunder, third through sixth we don't learn much of, and the seventh the Power of Command. The heels of the Staff of Law were not the third ward. They were on the Staff of Law.

What Kevin did not anticipate was Covenant. He woke the Krill, was with the Lords when they found the second Ward, and he made it possible to complete the quest for the Power of Command.

Krazy Kat wrote:
This is where the thread started. I think Trell figured it out for himself. But he saw that they were out of time, on the brink of defeat by Foul's army. He couldn't be in two places at once. So he opened up the Earthpower in the graveling pit, and paid the terrible price for it. I see his act as a form of suicide, but with purpose, to give the Land a chance to survive. It was his cryptic rallying call to the rhadhamearl.

It could be that the krill responds to white gold, not nesesserily Covenant. He was still in the Land when the light went out. When he recovered his ring the light went back on.
I see a connection here between the white gold ring and the Earthpower in the graveling - with both connected with the Ritual of Desecration.

I like Trell as much as the next guy, but he wasn't rallying anything. He was committing suicide, and destroying Revelstone along with him so that Foul won't get it. He says as much to Mhoram. He was saying, "if we can't have it, no one shall." It was an act of despair, and could help no one.

You are right in that the krill responds to the white gold. The gem shines white when Covenant holds the ring, but green when Elena does.

However, I suspect there is no connection at all between wild magic and Earthpower. They are diametrically opposed: Earthpower for order and peace; wild magic for chaos and destruction. Earthpower can be made to destroy, but it tends to order.
wayfriend wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what triggered the light of the krill to fade, perhaps when Covenant lost his ring. But the ring never left the land. Later, it gleamed with emerald, which must be when Dead green Elena had the ring. But Covenant was never controlled by the Illearth Stone at that time. Covenant is the white gold -- it must be responding to both, or to their relationship, rather than one or the other.

I think the light faded because Covenant was drugged by the ur-Vile liquid. He had the ring but perhaps the drug suppressed the "signal."
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matrixman wrote:
Krazy Kat, you sure have some unique ideas about the story. I respect your views, and it's certainly your right to air them...but I have to say your line of reasoning has lost me. Again, no offense intended. But don't mind me. Have fun with this discussion anyway! Smile


It's not the first time I've painted myself into a corner, and it won't be the last Smile. I guess all I'm saying is that here's an idea I feel is valid, prove me right or prove me wrong. And yes, having fun is the only reason I keep returning to the Watch. Offence? no way!

I'll always re-read the Chronicles. Apart from their damn good plot lines, twists and turns, and cunning symbolism, I think that when we try to deconstruct the story what we get left with is raw emotion. The things that words can fail to describe. IMHO.

To use another analogy: this thread has been like a friendly game of chess...I still have a few pieces left Razz


Kalkin wrote:

I like Trell as much as the next guy, but he wasn't rallying anything. He was committing suicide, and destroying Revelstone along with him so that Foul won't get it. He says as much to Mhoram. He was saying, "if we can't have it, no one shall." It was an act of despair, and could help no one.



This paragraph has always puzzled me, quote: from chapter 11, The Ritual of Desecration

Confronting each other, standing almost face to face, the two Gravelingases wove their lore-secret getures, sang their potent rhadhamaerl invocations. While the fire raged as if Revelstone were about to crash down upon them, they commanded the blaze, wrestled will against will for mastery of it.

If only for a few seconds, I see two men here who are on the same side with the same objective. I just feel sorry for Trell that he had to take such drastic measures to do so.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
This paragraph has always puzzled me, quote: from chapter 11, The Ritual of Desecration

Confronting each other, standing almost face to face, the two Gravelingases wove their lore-secret getures, sang their potent rhadhamaerl invocations. While the fire raged as if Revelstone were about to crash down upon them, they commanded the blaze, wrestled will against will for mastery of it. ~ my emphasis

If only for a few seconds, I see two men here who are on the same side with the same objective. I just feel sorry for Trell that he had to take such drastic measures to do so.

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can't see how you get them on the same side. Clearly the words used (as I highlighted) mean they were struggling against each other. To make it clear:

Quote:
But he had fallen too far under the power of his own holocaust.He pointed a rigid, accusing finger, then stooped to the graveling and heaved a double armful of fire at them ~ Ritual of Descecration, [i]The Power that Preserves

Not only was Trell not working with Tohrm and Mhoram, he tried to murder them.

I think what has happened is you have conflated two events. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that Trell made the gem of the krill glow, because it was first seen to be glowing after his Ritual. This doesn't seem accurate. Covenant reentered the Land at about the same time, and Loerya was the first to see it. We don't really know how long it had been glowing.

As far as I can tell, Trell had nothing at all to do with the krill.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalkin wrote:
Krazy Kat wrote:
This paragraph has always puzzled me, quote: from chapter 11, The Ritual of Desecration


Confronting each other, standing almost face to face, the two Gravelingases wove their lore-secret getures, sang their potent rhadhamaerl invocations. While the fire raged as if Revelstone were about to crash down upon them, they commanded the blaze, wrestled will against will for mastery of it. ~ my emphasis~my emphasis



Sorry for splitting hairs. Like I've said, I only ever had a gut feeling on all this.

On further speculation, the krill could have lit up while Trell was in the Close watched over by the two sentries. Covenant's return to the Land might have been the final blow that pushed him over the edge.

Of all Covenant's victim's, by which I mean, Triock, Elena, and Lena, Trell then seems to be the exeption. The others found forgiveness before their end. As for Atairan, there isn't enough information to say if she forgave TC as well.

On an unrelated subject, I was tracing the movements of Mhoram's mount, Drinny, to see if I could glean some insight into that final battle. Anyway, my copy of the first Chronicles is a Harper/Voyager omnibus publication and I happened to stumble on a misprint which was - Stanfist - ?

just thought I'd mention it - you can cue the music to the Twilight Zone now. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I salute your persistance, but they could both command the fire and work against each other at the same time. And it pretty much says so in the quote.

As for the krill pushing Trell over the edge, yeah I kinda think so as well. Just no way of knowing.
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Krazy Kat
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
Wasn't the reawakening of the Krill and Trell's ritual of desecration simply a happy coincidence?


Laughing I hope not!

Coincidence in novels such as the Chronicles would have a negitive impact on plot - one of the 'golden rules' in the craft of writing, I think.
Coincidence might work in detective stories, or even Sci-F, maybe.
To put it another way, I'd like to see if someone can come up with a good example of one.

Having said that, I'm reminded of a major coincidence in Oliver Twist when he gets caught picking the pocket of his long lost relative. I just don't see Stephen Donaldson doing this.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
Barnetto wrote:
Wasn't the reawakening of the Krill and Trell's ritual of desecration simply a happy coincidence?


Laughing I hope not!

Coincidence in novels such as the Chronicles would have a negitive impact on plot - one of the 'golden rules' in the craft of writing, I think.
Coincidence might work in detective stories, or even Sci-F, maybe.
To put it another way, I'd like to see if someone can come up with a good example of one.

Having said that, I'm reminded of a major coincidence in Oliver Twist when he gets caught picking the pocket of his long lost relative. I just don't see Stephen Donaldson doing this.

Why not? Tolkien did when the eagles show up in time to save Sam and Frodo. Deus ex machina.

Coincidence is a fact of life. As a matter of fact, the lack of coincidence can seem contrived.

On the other had, it doesn't have to be coincidence and still work. All of the timing in TCTC is prophetic. Things happen for a reason. Covenant resists Mhoram's summons because he happens to be saving some kid? That could be a coincidence, except for the fact that things have to happen that way. The idea that Trell's Ritual and Covenant's return not being a coincidence could destroy the plot is picking the least of coincidences and placing far too much importance on it. The hand of the Creator is in this. In that case, there are no coincidences.
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And on the Eighth Day God created Whiskey so that the Irish would not rule the Earth
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalkin wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what triggered the light of the krill to fade, perhaps when Covenant lost his ring. But the ring never left the land. Later, it gleamed with emerald, which must be when Dead green Elena had the ring. But Covenant was never controlled by the Illearth Stone at that time. Covenant is the white gold -- it must be responding to both, or to their relationship, rather than one or the other.

I think the light faded because Covenant was drugged by the ur-Vile liquid. He had the ring but perhaps the drug suppressed the "signal."

That sounds more correct. But any "logic" behind the correspondence between that and the krill light is even more lost on me, I have to admit.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Kalkin, I had to go to frellin' Wikipedia to look up "deus ex machina." My vocabulary is growing even without SRD....
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