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Lord Mhoram and Satanfist
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Vraith
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The krill responds to power. TC awakened it with white gold, the two are tied. When TC is capable of power in the land, the krill responds, when LM discovers the key to power, he is able to weild it.
But the timing of Trells desecration is neither coincidental, nor directly connected: It is two independent human reactions from the same cause [like we're not decended from modern apes, we and modern apes just share a common source].
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
The krill responds to power.

That's sort of what I believe. I think the krill had nothing to do with wild magic or Covenant originally. (It was created to slay Viles.) But when Covenant inadvertantly weilded it to stab it into the table, something changed. The blade became attuned to its weilder. Donaldson often talks about how, with magic, there's no seperation or distinction between what articulates a power with the power itself. (For example, the Staff of Law and Law.) I think when Covenant, in a moment of passion which enabled his unconscious power, passed that power through the krill, they became linked.

I think that when Loric created this weapon, whomever weilded it had to have that knowledge of power that Mhoram came to have. Kevin intended the new Lords to have this power, but the Oath of Peace prevented this. Progressing through the Wards, Kevin planned that they would have attained such knowledge at some point, the krill would have been weilded, and Amok would have appeared.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The krill is a Giant's tool I believe - one of many. Who else would use such a tool if not to carve out the Hall's and Corridor's of Revelstone.

It's placement in the Close must have been ordered by High Lord Mhoram. He saw logic here, as told in the chapter, Variol Son. His loss of predictive insight blinded him to Trell's potential leap of intuition.
This idea has many flaws

Mhoram knew that summoning Covenant meant an early grave. He must have saw some hope that the krill had deeper mysteries tied in with Covenant and his fate wasn't therefore carved in stone.

The deeper mysteries lie in 'Lord Mhoram Victory' - an open ended prophesy. But I believe he also knew that what was embedded in the stone table was not Loric's krill, it was only a Giantish masonary tool.
It was supposed to find Loric's krill which Covenant failed to grasp, and Amok failed too.
Kevin couldn't have foreseen the Elena in the Land, Foul knew this and raped her

I hope this makes a little sense. To write more just mess' up the Time-line of Kevin's Lore, which is essential if the Chronicles are to be understood.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression that Loric forged the krill, which would place it after the making of Revelstone. The Giants, as seen in the second Chronicles, had no need of such tools for the working of stone. Besides, it clearly wasn't made for Giantish hands. And why just one, and why is it so good for using power the Giants don't use?

I think you're really reaching here, Kat. There is nothing at all to indicate that the krill was not the weapon of Loric Vile-silencer. I think you are just trying to force round pegs in square holes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh heh...that was fun K-K, but no, I don't think so.
In practical terms, there is no useful function for a Krill-shaped tool in stonework, and as pointed out, the giants don't need such tools anyway.

And Amok could not be mistaken about the krill, nor his purpose...they are the rules by which he was made, and the definition of his existence.
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

- "Everybody loves Elena" is a line Mhoram spoke in the Illearth War. I can't recall to who, where, or to what question.

We have to put some faith in Elena, she was High Lord by choice of the counsel. So without the text to guide me I ask these questions:

Why did Elena give Covenant a blunt knife, and why did Covenant try to trash it. i know there are lots of other lines of query in the scene, but these will do for now

Let's say Elena had a wicked sense of humour.
Can you imagine TC riding into battle with a puny wee knife!
Covenant's got next to no humour at all.
He got upset - wouldn't you.
But he grappled back some of his pride, his dignity, and maybe he thought of Foamfollower, tough skinned, great resourse of laughter - wham! STARSHINE

The Illearth War is filled with secrets, hidden doors, withheld information, and this gives us plenty of leaway to try things on and see where they lead.

You're right about the krill not suited for Giantish hands, it did fit snugly in Covenant's, I seem to remember.
Laughing ah well, just ignore me then -


*Vraith* How did the Giants build Revelstone?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.

Elena did not give Covenant a dull knife, she gave him the krill of Loric Vilesilencer, Highlord, a hero of the past. Something puissant. Something she didn't understand, but did trust, because it came from the Old Lords.

Covenant didn't get angry because she gave him a knife to ride into battle (she didn't expect him to ride into battle at all.) He got angry because he was tired of everyone forgiving him and giving him gifts. Twist it as you might, your theory holds no water.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:

*Vraith* How did the Giants build Revelstone?

Heh...I don't recall the text specifically describing methods, but there are numerous references to the Giant's affinity for stone. I base most of it on Pitchwife's craft, though: He uses [IIRC] some tools that any stoneworker would recognize [a trowel sticks in me head for some reason] and Stone-lore [his pitch, when fixing the masts, for example]. So I conclude, ordinary tools for working stone: hammers, chisels, a polishing/grinding tool of some kind, great physical strength, an artistic vision attuned to stone, and a bit of lore.
A short sword/long dagger is almost useless for working stone [and in a giant's hands, the krill would be more like a paring knife...and there's no indication of any giant using the kinds of lore/power the krill is "apt" for]
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Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[EDIT..huh..this was a reply to what K-K said...but that post is suddenly missing...weird.]

I don't know why they wouldn't carve that way, even our history is full of ancient civilizations that did it, and we're not as good with stone as giants.
They love stone, they love the sea, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the world more dedicated to living/working and expressing their joy and love than the giants.
They do have affinity for stone and some lore...I said so. But the keels were made by Lords with their power to function in a way the giants could use.

The whole keep is an expression of what the giants are, and a gift to the Lords for what the Lords are.

Whatever the source of power, in the Land, the form and possibilities of that power are a direct function of the being wielding the power.
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Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
[EDIT..huh..this was a reply to what K-K said...but that post is suddenly missing...weird.]


My fault. I thought I was just going round in circles and hit the delete post button. Your post must have come in as I was deleting.

To carve a city from out of a granite mountain had to have taken the Giants a very long time. If they really made Revelstone for High Lord Kevin, I wonder how long he had to wait untill he moved in.
Unless Revelstone grew like any other city, over many generations.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recall if it specifies in the text anywhere, but my impression was that construction began under Damelon, which leaves plenty of time for it to be move-in ready for Kevin. Cool
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And don't forget that the Giants and the Old Lords lived a very long time.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh...I did say "plenty of time." Wink
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:

To carve a city from out of a granite mountain had to have taken the Giants a very long time. If they really made Revelstone for High Lord Kevin, I wonder how long he had to wait untill he moved in. Razz


I was actually trying to be sarcastic! I had this silly image of Kevin and the wife pulling up in front of Revelstone in the removal van:

Mrs.Landwaster says - 'And don't you think you can disapear off down the pub with your new Giantfriends, your helping me put the curtains up.
And another thing, that front lawn...'

Kevin: Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*BUMP*

It suddenly occured to me that there is something extraordinary about Lord Mhoram's (David and Goliath) victory over samadhi Satanfist, other that what initially appears in the text. Has anyone given much thought to Mhoram's badly burned hands...How significant is that...

It is Lord Mhoram who I'm sure became the closest to understanding Thomas Covenant; closer perhaps even than Saltheart Foamfollower. When Mhoram found the secret to the ritual of desecration hidden partly in Elena's anundivianyana work, it had to have been the white wild magic itself. Nothing else makes any sense, other than that! - the contents of Thomas Covenant's head

Lord Mhoram and Thomas Covenant were never more close than during that final struggle with the giant raver. So close in fact as to them both having the same (when you think of it!) condition of numbness in their hands.

Lord Mhoram was using the wild magic through his staff, this much is clear. Yet the blazing furnace, as far as I know, never caused him any burning of his hands. It was after his staff was destroyed (and the destruction of the staff of law!) and Covenant reclaiming his ring bringing Loric's krill back to life, that Mhoram found something pretty extraordinary.

I still stick with my original post that Trell was there on the Watchtower leading the rhadhamaerl in aid of Lord Mhoram's victory...

...so one last, and most important, comment on Trell's involvement - His hands!
Trell found only part of Lord Mhoram's secret. Only enough to plunge his hands into the stone floor corridor in Revelstone. Only enough to melt the rock of the Lord's chamber. And this wild passion that he used with only his two fists is especially interesting simply because his granddaughter, standing beneath the upraised obsidian fist of the Colossus is really quite curious - don't you think!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

excellent post!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danlo wrote:
excellent post!


Was unsure if it made a whole lot of sense, to some one else. I don't always put across ideas, or convey my thoughts, comments, clearly enough...the last sentence, for example, was a little bit clumsy...

On a related note: I've often wondered what would happen if someone in the new Covenant stories were to use the krill to summon another Amok-like character...could it be done...or was it always a one off-trick...

edit: I had intended to post that earlier today I was daydreaming about stuff that really lies outside of the (Power That Preserves) story, like for instance, imagining just how many times Trell could have spent sitting alone in the Hall of Gifts grieving over his lost ones, and how he might have held Elena's sculpture in his hands...and...so on...
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