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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At my post's bottom
Please click the profile button
Then click "All posts by..."

I post all over
Sometimes in other forms, but
Mostly in haiku
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Won't steal your haiku
but imitation is a
form of flattery
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DPJ tends to
inspire imitation
wherever he goes
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not that surprised
it's really quite addictive.
But, Hellfire! I'm already sick of counting syllables.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
I'm not that surprised
it's really quite addictive.
But, Hellfire! I'm already sick of counting syllables.


Big Grin
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimeil.. ROTE begins with the main protagonist in a Failure mode. This indicates to me,,that the author at end of the 2nd Chronicles,,wasn't done..or ,,where he left it wasn't a fitting, proper, complete, end, to the Thomas Covenant story. So, you are correct. If you can;t bear to see the 1st and 2nd chronicles evolved a way from..or..impoved upon or just,,changed in perspective over time..then YES..do not proceed into the Last Chrons until you are ready or prepared. The author makes a point in ROTE..about unearned knowledge. He is right. No use gettin any further into the LCs,,if you can't or are unwilling to deal with the changes of the LC. And. its no big deal to say so. Today, you may not want to..but..tomorrow you may change that decision, for whatever reason. Its not really a big deal at all.

I like how in a recent Gradual Interview answer..SRD referred to TCoTC as " his fantasy"...So SRD began the Chrons in the mid 70's and is finishing up the Lst Chrons approaching 40 years later. I Have To respect that Time. I don't care who the author, the artist, the musician etc is..he or she had Better change over 40 years of time. If you do not want to deal with that change..there is nothing I can or will,say or do. You have to come to the inevitable yourself and deal with it yourself, accordingly. Until then,,yes, treasure and savor the past since that is all you have.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hail Lurch!

Thanks for the post.


Quote:
I don't care. I want it to be true. Isn't it the only thing that matters?..pg 193 FR.

BTW, I can't find this quote from your signature box. Could you tell me which chapter is it in and who says it?


Quote:
ROTE begins with the main protagonist in a Failure mode.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by Failure Mode. Can you explain a bit?


I've tentatively started to read FR. I'm definitely happier with it than RotE. I'm up as far as 'The Stuff of Legends'. I'm noticing a couple of things. Firstly, as soon as it went back to the old Land I was fine with almost everything: the plot, the writing, the characters we find there, the setting and so on.

However, when it touches on the seemingly infinite complexities of the forces and intrigues surrounding Linden I am repelled out of the world and the story. I'm not a Star Wars fan, but one criticism I've heard of the Prequels is that too much of the action/talk takes place in the Council Chamber.

I keep on getting this feeling from FR. Subtlety I enjoy. The machinations of Foul in the 2nd Chrons were subtle. There were other strands of intrigue involving Vain and the Elohim, but that was it. Yet it was more than enough. Dense complexity alienates me and makes it very difficult to care about the motivations of those involved. I didn't like the Ur-viles or the Elohim but I cared about their intentions and actions. They felt important.

In FR there are so many things ramifying in so many directions and everybody seems to have access to some sort of eldritch power that it all becomes amorphous. I know that there is crucial part coming up at the end of Part 1, but if that doesn't simplify things significantly then I probably won't be able to continue.

As you say, I may not be ready, and it's no big deal. And as others have said, it may just not be for me, also no big deal. A pity though!

Take a moment to commiserate,

with this poor unfettered fruit,

u.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

us..to answer your question in the broadest terms possible,,Linden is us.,,you and me. Okay, maybe more you. I mean to say..Linden is basically stuck in the past at beginning of the LCs. She is still in love with TC who " died" years ago..which is one thing, but she hasn't succeeded in exercising a love with any body current. A failure of staying in touch with her own humanity there. Jeremiah also represents a failure of sorts,,until he starts building Land things with his legos and what not. On a professional level she is failing with Joan and compounds the failure by giving Joan ..the wedding ring..Then Roger shows up and she is completely in over her head ,,all leading to a catastrophe. FAIL.

Basically..she is stuck in the past...and like you and others..Linden is resigned to see all things. live her life,,thru the perspective of the past. The Last Chrons is that lightning bolt the author sent down blasting Joan thus bringing Linden back to the Land. I suspect Thomas Covenant will eventually be shown to have launched that lightning bolt.

Basicallly the LC's are about Staying True to One Self,,Personal Identity,,what it is to be a human being. Linden as a Doctor,,thought she had it all figured out..had all the answers. But..the problematic Joan..the failure of Joan..connected Linden to whole lotta other failure,,that eventually arrived knocking at her front door in the person of Roger.

So, living in the past had caught up to her. What is the change required to fix her problem? Stop living in the past. The past does not exist. Its a phantom, a ghost,,at least one step away from anything real, an Illusion. Many Illusions are covered in FR. So many that FR isn't so much about the Illusions themselves, but about the mental habits that foster our believing in Illusions. Quitting those mental habits leaves a void. So what do you fill the void with?..AATE answers a good part of that in surfacing choices. TLD, oh boy..The Last Dark is you and others,,letting go of the past..and exploring the what and how of the authors future created in these Last Chrons...Explore the unknown. Explore the mystery . Create a future .
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am impressed!

You have moved me, my friend.

I hear the truth of your words.

I must ponder them,

and then respond.

Hail!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Sorry if I sound a bit rambly, haven't had too much sleep.)

ussusimiel wrote:
I keep on getting this feeling from FR. Subtlety I enjoy. The machinations of Foul in the 2nd Chrons were subtle. There were other strands of intrigue involving Vain and the Elohim, but that was it. Yet it was more than enough. Dense complexity alienates me and makes it very difficult to care about the motivations of those involved. I didn't like the Ur-viles or the Elohim but I cared about their intentions and actions. They felt important.


Even though I know this happens all the time, it's still interesting how certain aspects of a book (or practically anything) affect different readers. I, for one, love conundrums wrapped in enigmas, even if it requires skipping back a few sentences or pages and reading the whole thing again. However, the characters left me cold for the most part in ROTE, and I feared the same: that I wouldn't be able to properly identify with anyone, or care about their motivations. This has changed, although I still can't feel such strong psychological connections as during the 1-2 chrons.

However, the 3rd chrons have achieved something else: I have for the first time become mildly fascinated by the Ur-viles as beings, thanks to the wealth of new information about their background. Omitting spoilers, I seriously felt sorry for them at one point. Also, I never managed to feel much sympathies or interest towards the haruchai before now, but Stave changed this. Cail, Bannor, etc. seem popular among many other readers, but I've never befriended them mentally, so to say.

ussusimiel wrote:
In FR there are so many things ramifying in so many directions and everybody seems to have access to some sort of eldritch power that it all becomes amorphous. I know that there is crucial part coming up at the end of Part 1, but if that doesn't simplify things significantly then I probably won't be able to continue.


Well, that's of course entirely up to you, but I usually attempt to read a book from cover to cover, no matter how dreadful it may feel at some point. Wink

In that sense, I'm joining the others in saying that a second reading usually widens the perspectives tremendously. At least for me, the SLAM-BLAM-SQUEE rabid fangirl mode hit fully during the re-reads of the 1st and 2nd chrons, while I was able to appreciate the characters and their dilemmas much better and plunge into the multiple layers of storytelling beneath the ornate language. It says something that the first reading took me almost 2 years (with several-month-long gaps in-between volumes and even parts of the same book). I realized these novels belonged to some of the best fantasy I had ever read, but some sections (the battles of Revelstone, some deep emotional abysses, TC's utter bastardness, etc.) just felt too heavy at times and I couldn't continue for a while. WGW sat abandoned in my shelf for half a year, a bookmark rammed somewhere among the pages describing the quest's labors among the ice. When I picked it up again, leafed through sections of the previous volumes to refresh my memory, something clicked into place and I started a ravenous re-read, and the hunt for forums and fan-art.

I can't form any iron-bound opinions about the 3rd chrons yet, but there's a lingering shade of certainty that I might appreciate the whole set more after a re-read, mayhaps even the brain-numbing ROTE. They're rather different from the first sets, and I've accepted that now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear from you again, Zorm, sleep-deprived or not!

I once again enjoyed reading your post. You have a very fluid and engaging writing style.

Quote:
I can't form any iron-bound opinions about the 3rd chrons yet, but there's a lingering shade of certainty that I might appreciate the whole set more after a re-read, mayhaps even the brain-numbing ROTE.


This is a nicely turned sentence. Nice rhythm, nice balance. There's even a full rhyme, yet/set. You don't happen to write poetry, do you?

And this one:

Quote:
WGW sat abandoned in my shelf for half a year, a bookmark rammed somewhere among the pages describing the quest's labors among the ice.


I smiled at the force with which the poor bookmark had been treated and it nicely resonated with that part of WGW; all that packed ice and grimaces and arghuleh Hail


The pleasant part over, I turn now to the disagreeable Big Grin


Quote:
Well, that's of course entirely up to you, but I usually attempt to read a book from cover to cover, no matter how dreadful it may feel at some point.

I may simply be more of a first impressions person. If a book or a film doesn't engage me I'll stop watching/reading. Except when I've paid good money for the cinema that is! However, there are very few movies that I've seen that started badly and then rescued themselves with a good ending. There are loads that I wish I'd walked out of the cinema and not wasted my time.

LFB is hard to get into first time round but the start is well written and intriguing if not exactly pleasant. If there are films or books out there that that are redeemed by their endings then I would like to hear about them (sounds like an idea for a thread!).

I am with SRD on this, if I am not enjoying reading something then I stop. That said, I have started reading FR again, which I thought I would never do, solely on the strength of the responses that I have had on this thread. (I have also been gifted a really interesting idea to chew over. (See Lurch's post above. Hail Lurch!)) So, there is some hope for me Big Grin

I would have to say that I felt awe for the Haruchai, especially after the 2nd Chrons. A real sense of their passion came through to me. I also felt sympathy for the Ur-viles (along with Mick Jagger Laughing ). The creation of Vain and their almost insane desire for a new Staff of Law touched me and gave me a small but significant insight into their motivations.

I am glad that the 3rd Chrons have deepened your appreciation of the 1st and 2nd Chrons that alone would justify their existence. For me the 3rd Chrons have helped me widen my perspective on the 1st and 2nd Chrons and a couple of things that characters have said things moved me e.g. Linden and the Theomach in FR.

As to re-reading, I know that I usually avoid parts of TPTP simply because they are so grim, especially the section where Covenant is struggling barefoot through the snow with a mangled ankle and carrying the grief of Lena's death. Yet when I read that first time I was riveted. So, I don't think that I have ever had the experience of a re-reading a fantasy novel that improved on the initial impression. Deepening appreciation and understanding, yes. Deeper emotional connection, no.

And I recognise that my response is purely subjective. It says more about me than the work itself. It'd be a much poorer world if everyone had exactly the same experiences and responses. Then, there would be nothing to talk about and I wouldn't have the pleasure of reading well-turned sentences like your own Very Happy

u.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an excellent point Zorn..the author's treatment of the ur-viles, waynhim, and even the ancient Viles..the demondin spawn in total..there is more ...compassion(?) by the author in the LC's for all these creatures than in the 1&2 chrons. From the Viles to the Feroce,,the author has us..well a few possibily,,feeling compassionately about , rather than the strict black or white view of them previously. So..again, the cheese is still there.. it has just moved..for a grander impact.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
I am impressed!

You have moved me, my friend.

I hear the truth of your words.

I must ponder them,

and then respond.

Hail!


There is truth in your words, too. Don't mistake a personal criticism in a public forum from someone you don't know as insight into your own preferences. When someone dislikes something that Lurch likes, he blames them. Ad hominem is his "thang." He's claiming you are wrong about the Last Chronicles because you have a personal character flaw (you're "stuck in the past"). Just check out the last couple pages of the Lost Season 6 thread, for more examples of this condescending tactic. And if you ever get around to the hidden AATE forum, you'll see it repeated over and over. Instead of addressing your valid complaints, and treating them with respect, Lurch is criticizing you for your preferences, and labeling you with a personality flaw merely because you don't like a book of which he's fond.

If you think about it, it doesn't really make much sense. The Second Chronicles were very different from the First Chronicles. And yet--miraculously--you seem to have escaped the Past and accepted Change in order to embrace the 2nd Chrons. How the hell did you manage that if you truly are guilty of this personality flaw which Lurch the Watch Psychologist has been able to diagnose from a few posts? Obviously, you're not averse to Change or the Future. You simply didn't like this particular direction Donaldson decided to take. THAT truly is no big deal--unlike the insincere "no big deal" Lurch uses to obscure the fact that he's insulting you. He wouldn't bother to insult you if he truly thought people disliking the Last Chronicles was no big deal. Nor would he repeat exactly this same technique dozens of times over the Watch if he truly thought it was no Big Deal. No one spends that much time repeating the same tactic if they think it's no big deal.

You are not alone. There are 1000s of people who are deeply disappointed with the Last Chronicles. If you couldn't make it through Fatal Revenant--honestly the best of the LC so far--there's no way in hell you're going to make it through AATE ... a novel in which no less than 300 pages are spent sitting in two spots talking and Linden feeling angsty.

The first 100 and last 100 pages are damn good, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z..yessur..nothin like a good pot callin the kettle black..You are good at it..

Flaw??..no..just the way people are taught to think and perceive. The suggestion is..if you care enough for the writer and his work,,you may have to change,,may have to evolve,,may have to find where he has moved the cheese to..I am simply pointing out where the cheese is imho.

Again..by your own words, you make a polarized situation out of what I contend is the author's attempt to rise above the polarized black vs white, right vs wrong view of living the existance. Uss says he wants the TC of the 1&2 chrons..I say he is stuck in the past..DUH? I am agreeing with the guy..and..offer a way to perceive things that mite give opportunity to continue to read the LC's..So what do you do?..start a fite..way to go dude..you a real constructive type I can tell.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hail Zarathustra!

Thank you for your stout defence. I have also read and enjoyed many of your posts on KW.

One of the reasons I am Unfettered is to try and avoid getting
my poor fruit's ass scorched in a flamewar Good and Evil

So I shall try be as fair as possible and hope not to come out of this looking like a watery melon.

Your defence is totally valid. I was aware of the implication of a personal flaw in Lurch's post. I was a bit surprised by it but I felt that it was an honestly and openly made observation (at least to me) and thus didn't feel condescended to or insulted.

However, in saying that I admire your coming to (what you felt was) my aid. My posts probably come across as open and trusting and to a certain degree that is true of my personality. I am also, however, very experienced in discussions like this and know how to look after myself. If I was truly as naive and inexperienced as my posts portray me, then your defence would be more than admirable, it would be necessary. And, if at any time in the future I come across what I perceive as unfair treatment of another member of this forum I hope that I follow your good example.

I am still in the process of preparing a response to Lurch's earlier post. I'd be interested in getting your reaction to it when I post it.

Thank you for being True,

Zarathustra, Hail!

u.

P.S. You have also done a stellar job at selling me on AATE. Are you sure you and Lurch are not part of a tag team, or are not playing Good Cop/Bad Cop. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
us..to answer your question in the broadest terms possible,,Linden is us.,,you and me. Okay, maybe more you. I mean to say..Linden is basically stuck in the past at beginning of the LCs. She is still in love with TC who " died" years ago..which is one thing, but she hasn't succeeded in exercising a love with any body current. A failure of staying in touch with her own humanity there. Jeremiah also represents a failure of sorts,,until he starts building Land things with his legos and what not. On a professional level she is failing with Joan and compounds the failure by giving Joan ..the wedding ring..Then Roger shows up and she is completely in over her head ,,all leading to a catastrophe. FAIL.

Basically..she is stuck in the past...and like you and others..Linden is resigned to see all things. live her life,,thru the perspective of the past. The Last Chrons is that lightning bolt the author sent down blasting Joan thus bringing Linden back to the Land. I suspect Thomas Covenant will eventually be shown to have launched that lightning bolt.

Basicallly the LC's are about Staying True to One Self,,Personal Identity,,what it is to be a human being. Linden as a Doctor,,thought she had it all figured out..had all the answers. But..the problematic Joan..the failure of Joan..connected Linden to whole lotta other failure,,that eventually arrived knocking at her front door in the person of Roger.

So, living in the past had caught up to her. What is the change required to fix her problem? Stop living in the past. The past does not exist. Its a phantom, a ghost,,at least one step away from anything real, an Illusion. Many Illusions are covered in FR. So many that FR isn't so much about the Illusions themselves, but about the mental habits that foster our believing in Illusions. Quitting those mental habits leaves a void. So what do you fill the void with?..AATE answers a good part of that in surfacing choices. TLD, oh boy..The Last Dark is you and others,,letting go of the past..and exploring the what and how of the authors future created in these Last Chrons...Explore the unknown. Explore the mystery . Create a future .


Hail Lurch,

I have had a good mull over your post above and hereís where what Iíve got.

The idea of Failure Mode is something that had not occurred to me because I was so annoyed by the writing and the very existence of the 3rd Chrons that I couldnít even bear to engage with them. This thread and contributions like yours have helped me clear some of that baggage (the Past!) away.

I am now better able to separate the 1st and 2nd Chrons from the Final Chrons. I wasnít able to do that previously, because, in common with Fist and Faith, I feared that I would lose something precious by continuing to read the Final Chrons. Using your idea that they are written by a changed author I am able to look at them as if they are two totally separate if connected works. Hooray! (And a paradox into the bargain. TC would be pleased TC)

Your idea that Linden is in Failure Mode also suggested an idea that hadnít occurred to me before. The idea is this: Failure Mode is the mode of the Hero in the post-modern situation, just as Covenant was the Ironic Hero of the modern situation. This never occurred to me because I had assumed that Linden would be like Covenant when she returned to the Ďrealí world.

Linden as post-modern Hero is something I can work with. It allows me to see all the complexity that surrounds her as something significant even if I still dislike it. I will be interested to see how SDR resolves the post-modern situation, if that is what he is about.

Personally, I am very suspicious of the proliferation of science and technology (says he as he uses the Internet to talk about one of his favourite authors) without a simultaneous deepening of a moral discourse to deal with the effects of new knowledge. As has been pointed out, SRD is big on unearned knowledge. For me this is the problem with technology and its big brother science. They are the results of an explanatory model not a Truth seeking endeavour.

To unthinkingly embrace technology and the post-modern world it produces is, in my view, to court disaster. If SRD is making that point, I applaud him.

If, on the other hand, he is encouraging me to engage wholeheartedly in our shiny, new, post-modern future then I am less than enthusiastic.

(Why, to my eyes, the Final Chrons lack the cohesion and flow of the other Chrons is another dayís work.)

Thanks for the stimulating input. Please let me know what you think.

u.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:

To unthinkingly embrace technology and the post-modern world it produces is, in my view, to court disaster. If SDR is making that point, I applaud him.

If, on the other hand, he is encouraging me to engage wholeheartedly in our shiny, new, post-modern future then I am less than enthusiastic.

Synchronistically [if you believe in that kinda stuff], on the gradual interview SRD addresses almost exactly what you're pondering here...very recently, too [within the last week or so, last 10 or 12 posts, I'm pretty sure]. You should check it out, I think you'll find the answer comforting, whether it changes your view on the last chron's or not.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Vraith,

I did that, but because some of the questions come under spoiler tags and I still haven't finished FR I wasn't able to look at them all.

Any chance you might post the relevant quote here? *pretty please*

Sorry to impose Embarassed

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uss..I have a slitely different understanding of " post-modern",,but It doesn't stop me from agreeing with ...science and tech for deeper and broader understanding/expression of our Humanity. ..not Humanity to explore science for the sake of science. Yes science /tech is to serve our Humanity..our needs to stay in touch with our humanity..No..humanity doesn't exist to serve science. ..as much as a 15 yr olde seeing the newest cell phone for sale believes otherwise.

Linden on that arc from " modernist" ( science explains everything) to post modernist..( no..science doesn't explain everything, it only explains science)..is a good metaphorical fit , generally speakin. Her unreciprocated relationships, TC and Jerry,,and even Joan, speak to the lack of " humanity" that science has about it. Linden starts as the anti hero..the ironic,,yet there is an arc, there is " change" by the character,,and,,imho,,due to what the author has at play,,the reader,,you and me,,are offered an opportunity to " arc" as well...Post Modernism taken to a new dimension. I mean to say..Having Linden ivolved in a cold , unreciprocating relationship with TC/Jerry/Joan...but telling a story and saying to the reader..take it or leave it.. thats my story ..comes across as a bit hypocritical. So..the author challenges the reader with some interactiveness...

His website's Gradual Interview is an example of " interactive". But even more so..is the play in FR of TC and Jeremiah. We are on the same level,,or plain..as Linden. The author treats us and Linden the same. The Mystery ..the interactive..is on us and we don't even kno it ..for how long any one of us as an individual takes to realize and figure out..WE become the low brow Ironic Hero!! Dam it, there is a LOVE there.. The author so loves his readers that he makes them characters in his story..Thats not science. Thats a LOVE..from a human being who at an early age..when required to register for the draft during the Vietnam War..registered as a conscientious objector and served in hospitals helping the ill and infirm rather than serve in the military..A Post Modernist..whatever that means..I think you could say so.

So..imho..yea..the cheese is still there..but the author has expanded its location some what..a bit of a mystery sure, yet thankfully he respects our intelligence therefore I can do nothing but return the respect...Does every one have to see the author's LC the way I do ? Of course not. I'm just lettin folks kno ..that the choice is there..and if my choice/ view is there..then there are a million other ..individual Post Modern Ironic Heros out there who can come with equivalent and or better than I can or will..
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here ya go Us---the relevant portion.
[emphasis mine]
SRD-GI wrote:


You see "Gaia" (about which I know nothing) and "Shaolin Monks" (about which I knew nothing when I created the Haruchai). Other people see "The Chronicles" as Christian texts, or Buddhist, or existentialist, or humanist, or Taoist. Of course there is "merit" in your observations. But that doesn't mean you're reading what I wrote. No one *ever* reads what I wrote: even *I* don't. Why? Because reading is inherently interactive. In many ways, it is a re-creative process. By their very nature, what the reader receives and what the writer transmits are singular. Which is a big part of what makes the whole thing so wonderful.

As for me, I don't think about religious themes--or *any* themes--when I write. I concentrate on two things: 1) telling the story to the best of my abilities; and 2) giving as much of myself to my characters as I can. In retrospect, of course, I become aware of all manner of themes. But I don't consciously strive for those themes while I'm writing.

The first bolded part goes hand in hand with the post-modern world--
The second, though--that kind of/focus on storytelling predates the post-modern by a millenium or two.
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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