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Privacy continues to be an illusion as NSA hacks encryption
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Privacy continues to be an illusion as NSA hacks encryption Reply with quote

Secure communications? Nope...

www.nbcnews.com/technology/nsa-foils-much-internet-encryption-8C11083204?Gt1=43001

I continue to be further troubled by the insidious monster that our government is becoming.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just reading the same story in the New York Times. It details the NSA's efforts at obtaining legal--or at least sanctioned--access to any and all encryption methods dating back to the mid-90s as various Internet protocols were being fully developed. I remember the fight that the Clinton Administration had over PGP, which is still is use to this day. The article states, though, that the NSA even has access to SSL, which feeds into HTTPS, the protocol used by "secure" websites. They also apparently have a large repository of keys they have collected over the years.

In short, I would err on the side of caution and state that anything you do that is "secure" or "encrypted" via the Internet these days is neither secure nor encrypted. If you want to encrypt your messages to make them unreadable you have to transcend the 7-layer OSI model (the current model of computer networking with Layer 1 at the bottom--sending bits along a wire--up to Layer 7, the Application layer, which is the user-friendly software you use every day) and encrypt the data you wish to secure at Layer 8--the User level. In other words, you have to do it yourself.
I have given several examples of the system I use, the one I keep refining from time to time. The best part about my system? It is flexible and I can change it anytime I want. The input variables I start with can be changed on a whim so if I encrypt the same sentence twice it comes out looking like two different strings of text. One of these days, I keep telling myself, I am going to get a newly-imaged computer, install the Tor browser, install HideMyIP, encrypt my resume, and send it to the NSA using a throwaway e-mail account with the challenge "if you cannot decrypt my resume in 6 months can I have a job with you?".

I am uncertain if I would be comfortable with myself were they to accept my offer. How could I remain true to my principles working for an organization that spies on my fellow citizens?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly one could argue that the accepted internet protocol for sending secure credit card transactions is the very definition of "expectation of privacy". Even local development tools such as Fiddler and others can't snoop into the SSL tunnel when sending requests back and forth. Thus, the NSA is in direct violation of privacy by doing this.

Plain text communications are one thing. This is quite another.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone who noticed that over the last several decades, it's been very illegal to use any encryption algorithms not approved by the government, this is not a surprise, or even barely news.

Also, anyone with compute power can break encryptiotn on keys as large as 1024 bits without effort. This is due to the increase in computing speeds as well as the improvements in using multiple CPUs. This means that most of the secure internet isn't really secure to someone who really wants to crack something.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdhopeca wrote:
Certainly one could argue that the accepted internet protocol for sending secure credit card transactions is the very definition of "expectation of privacy".


Excellent point. That's the standard used by the SCOTUS, and it quite obviously applies here. This needs to be addressed by the SCOTUS asap.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


In short, I would err on the side of caution and state that anything you do that is "secure" or "encrypted" via the Internet these days is neither secure nor encrypted.


The above for the win. Does anyone think that even if the Govt assured us that they are going to stop doing this, even if the Supreme Court told them that this was illegal, unconstitutional and they were given the order to stop immediately, that any of this would stop? If you do believe that then I have some swamp land I would like to sell you.

For me, I continue to minimize my internet footprint and if this continues, I might go even further. I haven't gone the route that Hashi described above by going above the OSI model and using a user encrypted Cipher but there may come a time when we all will need to do this if we expect any privacy whatsoever on the net
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
For anyone who noticed that over the last several decades, it's been very illegal to use any encryption algorithms not approved by the government, this is not a surprise, or even barely news.

Also, anyone with compute power can break encryptiotn on keys as large as 1024 bits without effort. This is due to the increase in computing speeds as well as the improvements in using multiple CPUs. This means that most of the secure internet isn't really secure to someone who really wants to crack something.


The larger point, though, is that the encryption algorithms are expected to be secure. So it doesn't matter if someone can break them if they happen to want to waste a few weeks of CPU power breaking down a cipher. The point is that the transmissions are secure.

This is like suggesting everyone put their valuables in a personally owned safe deposit box, and then allowing the government to look inside each one without a warrant at their leisure.

There's no legitimate reason for the NSA to be cracking our own encryption routines on a global scale.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdhopeca wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
For anyone who noticed that over the last several decades, it's been very illegal to use any encryption algorithms not approved by the government, this is not a surprise, or even barely news.


The larger point, though, is that the encryption algorithms are expected to be secure. So it doesn't matter if someone can break them if they happen to want to waste a few weeks of CPU power breaking down a cipher. The point is that the transmissions are secure.

This is like suggesting everyone put their valuables in a personally owned safe deposit box, and then allowing the government to look inside each one without a warrant at their leisure.

There's no legitimate reason for the NSA to be cracking our own encryption routines on a global scale.

Well, first of all, if you can crack the code, it isn't secure. That's just a tautology.

Nothing on the internet is pefectly secure. It's all relative to an amount of effort. And, BTW, we're not talking weeks ... SSL based on small keys can be cracked while you get a coke from the machine. Most of the web is not even "reasonably" secure ... a point that has been made time and time again.

It's not unreasonable that the government can get into any safety deposit box it needs to. What is unreasonable is not needing a court order or search warrant to do so.

And I say "not unreasonable" because private encryption algorithms that can't be cracked is a weapon in the hands of bad actors. I hope I don't need to explain why. So the policy for decades has been to limit which algorithms could be used, and that these algorithms had to be "open" so that everyone can see that they are secure and have no back doors ... and so (as everyone has suspected for as many decades) governments can crack it when they need to.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
and so (as everyone has suspected for as many decades) governments can crack it when they need to.


Without a warrant. Without probable cause. Without a legitimate reason. Which doesn't make it right, or Constitutional, or even ethical.

I totally get your point about breaking the code, I'm a certified Network technician. But this would be the same as me going out and buying a car with tinted windows, and the government being allowed to place a camera over where my car is parked with lenses that can see through tinted windows, or even the car itself.

If we are going to hold ourselves up as the model society for the world, even to the point of playing policeman to the world, we should probably get our own house in order as far as upholding our own laws. (Expected to be) Private communications, especially those that are encrypted and have that expectation (by the layman, not by those of us who might know better), should stay that way.
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Last edited by rdhopeca on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I'll be accused of melodrama, but I think we're living through nothing less than a change in humanity. Seriously. Like a novel or movie set in the far future. Things are very different, and the reader learns, bit by bit, how we came to change in such fundamental ways.

We WILL NOT have the privacy we once had. It is not possible. Any lock or code person A can make, person B can break. No question. And many of those with the means, whether the governments or private individuals, have no intention of respecting everyone's privacy.

So humanity will learn to live without privacy. We can be outraged all we want. And our outrage is legitimate. But we WILL live without privacy. How we'll adjust to that is beyond me, but we won't have any choice about it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdhopeca wrote:
I totally get your point about breaking the code, I'm a certified Network technician. But this would be the same as me going out and buying a car with tinted windows, and the government being allowed to place a camera over where my car is parked with lenses that can see through tinted windows, or even the car itself.

If we are going to hold ourselves up as the model society for the world, even to the point of playing policeman to the world, we should probably get our own house in order as far as upholding our own laws. (Expected to be) Private communications, especially those that are encrypted and have that expectation (by the layman, not by those of us who might know better), should stay that way.


Excellent--a fellow tech, so rdhopeca gets it. Using secure tunnels on networks sets up the expectation of privacy and no government agency should be holding all the keys in order to look at whatever they want, even if this means the bad guys get to talk about what they are going to try and do next week.

Yes, any encryption algorithm can, given sufficient time and ingenuity, be cracked; although this will technically means they are "insecure" if it takes 6 months to crack that is secure enough because the people using it have moved on.
This is more insidious, though, because it is the NSA putting back doors into the foundation of all online communication, giving them a window into everything, everywhere, all of the time.


wayfriend wrote:
And I say "not unreasonable" because private encryption algorithms that can't be cracked is a weapon in the hands of bad actors.


Bad actors? Not necessarily. Someone would have to be extremely lucky or significantly more brilliant than I am--and those people exist--to crack the algorithm I use, which isn't based on the principles used for other encryption methods. I have been tempted to share it from time to time but I never have--a secret remains secret only if a few people know it because the more people who know it the more likely it is to be uncovered.

Without further ado....
EpfiaaArAfAxFwHtBvbuAgaddpAsajbfehanEhGoByblayaganbhaeCqIqAacfBtadcqddaobmAeacBuBbAsbaBaAyBcarAwBcafAviwspcpCsbgAaehcwasagFmAobuAbAxgmhebiCoBgApAnbiBtDoIeBwfcbwasagAoapbjapaf

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree and here's why:

a;lkjdal;kfjdl;ajksdfl;kajgpepoiwuerpoiufgl;akjsdfad;lkjadsg

Just teasing you. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z, that post is just begging for WF to come by and say you make a good point!

Just teasing both of you.Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait ... wait ... I'll know if he made a good point with a bit more crunching ...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

a;lkjdal;kfjdl;ajksdfl;kajgpepoiwuerpoiufgl;akjsdfad;lkjadsg


You don't speak to your mother with that filthy mouth, do you? You should be ashamed of yourself. In the words of everyone's favorite Psi-Cop Mr. Bester, "anatomically impossible".
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a brief moment of irony today, my new diabeties doctor introduced me to their online site for communicating directly with my medical staff...and then without prompting mentioned I shouldn't use it because of yesterday's news regarding secure transactions and the idea that the government could then read my (allegedly) confidential medical records at any time if I used it.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdhopeca wrote:
In a brief moment of irony today, my new diabeties doctor introduced me to their online site for communicating directly with my medical staff...and then without prompting mentioned I shouldn't use it because of yesterday's news regarding secure transactions and the idea that the government could then read my (allegedly) confidential medical records at any time if I used it.
I suspect your Medical Records are already as available to The Government as they could ever want. I don't think you accessing them will make a bit of difference. Although, it's reasonable to judge mandating electronic records for more efficient sharing within the system would assist in cost cutting, I don't think it was lost on them, that it made Medical Records easier to access.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a fellow diabetic, first principle is to do what's best for your maintenance. Screw the government; your diabetes is not the prime lever they have on you.

If it is, good on you...you have nothing to be concerned about!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was merely commenting on the sense of unease and distrust that this issue was raising in places I was not necessarily considering...like medical, where HIPPA is the law...(allegedly)...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
As a fellow diabetic, first principle is to do what's best for your maintenance. Screw the government; your diabetes is not the prime lever they have on you.

If it is, good on you...you have nothing to be concerned about!


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