View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd Würm

 Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2084
Thanks: 10 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
644 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:20 am Post subject: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? |
|
|
So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away? _________________ "Simony... blah blah... "
When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
The shadow of the axe hangs over every joy.
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
DrPaul Giantfriend
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Posts: 469
Thanks: 3 Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
2506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:

|
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
We've conjectured about this on other threads, but I think it's clear that Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah have undergone some kind of transformation in the process of redeeming the Creation which has made them something different from ordinary mortal humans, although not necessarily immortal. It's also clear that one of the goals that Covenant has set for himself is to help Lord Foul take a less curmudgeonly view of the universe and his role within it. I don't think Lord Foul will remain absorbed if and when Covenant passes on, but the interesting questions will be (a) whether he has ceased, partly or wholly, to be a Despiser and (b) whether he will return to beyond the Arch of Time as She did. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
wayfriend whilom witling

 Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 20196
Thanks: 11 Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts
Location: In reality once again 49195 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My impression is that Covenant is now immortal. He's the world's creator now, so he should be. And he would get the power from Foul, and so he could be. After being the Timewarden he would want to care for his world, and so he would be. _________________ * I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
dlbpharmd Lord

  Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 14370
Thanks: 5 Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts
Location: Jacksboro, TN. 15258 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds. _________________
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd Würm

 Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2084
Thanks: 10 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
644 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can anybody say "plot hole"? _________________ "Simony... blah blah... "
When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
The shadow of the axe hangs over every joy.
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Vraith Obligate Metaphor

Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 10620
Thanks: 17 Thanked 100 Times in 97 Posts
Location: everywhere, all the time 31675 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: | Can anybody say "plot hole"? |
Yep.
But I can also say "The damn story is over, and there are God's in the Earth."
Given that there are two gold rings, a shitpile of Forestals that know more than any others ever did, Elohim and Insequent and other folk combining knowledge, a Staff of Law wielder who had knowledge in his own person from pretty much every age and Power of the world PLUS a talent for metaphysical doors, traps, and rooms...and they have an age or two to work out what they don't know?
If he hasn't learned his lesson by the time TC is on his death bed [if that's even likely to happen] they just find/make a new safe place.
If he HAS, then they send him home, where He, SHE and Creator can have a weepy/joyful reunion in the "outside" and get about the business of making better worlds. [our world being rough draft, the Land better, the next one even better.] _________________
Spoiler: Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user. |
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
wayfriend whilom witling

 Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 20196
Thanks: 11 Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts
Location: In reality once again 49195 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Forgot to add... if Hile Troy can become Caer-Caveral and live for 3500 years, I think Covenant can live pretty much as long as he wants to. And it says somewhere in the first Chronicles that service to the Earth grants long life.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: | Can anybody say "plot hole"? |
I honestly don't see how. At worst, it's an ambiguous resolution. But, as SRD² says, "Endings to be useful must be inconclusive."
dlbpharmd wrote: | I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds. |
Speaking of which, we should't be relying on recall ... when is it time to start badgering Jenn about that? _________________ * I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
dlbpharmd Lord

  Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 14370
Thanks: 5 Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts
Location: Jacksboro, TN. 15258 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wayfriend wrote: |
dlbpharmd wrote: | I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds. |
Speaking of which, we should't be relying on recall ... when is it time to start badgering Jenn about that? |
It's past time!  _________________
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
JIkj fjds j j sfoO fp
 Joined: 22 Dec 2014 Posts: 1058
Thanks: 6 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Location: 24i v o ot 2921 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:

|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? |
|
|
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: | So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away? |
What is this !!! You mean we don't get to find out if Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are alive or dead and left laying in a ditch surrounded by dumbass cops ?
I've still to read part II of The Last Dark and now wondering what's the point.
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Cord Hurn Servant Of The Band

  Joined: 28 Oct 2013 Posts: 6321
Thanks: 1067 Thanked 85 Times in 80 Posts
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA 8549 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Vizidor, if you haven't finished The Last Dark yet, than what are you doing reading posts on the TLD sub-forum?
Of course you're going to encounter spoiler information!
But, the good news is there's still plenty of surprises in store for you--as long as you can stay off this sub-forum until you've completed the book, that is. _________________ Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Vraith Obligate Metaphor

Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 10620
Thanks: 17 Thanked 100 Times in 97 Posts
Location: everywhere, all the time 31675 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? |
|
|
Vizidor wrote: | TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: | So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away? |
What is this !!! You mean we don't get to find out if Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are alive or dead and left laying in a ditch surrounded by dumbass cops ?
 |
They're dead, Jim. I mean Viz. In the homeworld. they probably are surrounded by cops, cuz that's why they're dead in the homeworld. That shouldn't be a spoiler for anyone reading a last dark thread. _________________
Spoiler: Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user. |
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Cord Hurn Servant Of The Band

  Joined: 28 Oct 2013 Posts: 6321
Thanks: 1067 Thanked 85 Times in 80 Posts
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA 8549 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
  

|
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
I crave your pardon, Vizidor, if I sounded somewhat harsh in my last post on this thread.
But as a general rule to avoid encountering spoilers, you should not read posts in a forum or sub-forum dedicated to a Donaldson book that you haven't yet finished (this particular post being an exception, of course). TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd really didn't do anything wrong. _________________ Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring
 |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Wosbald A Brainwashed Religious Flunkie

 Joined: 07 Feb 2015 Posts: 3779
Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts
13653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
+JMJ+
I don't mean to be a Nancy Naysayer, but this question had never crossed my mind. It just doesn't compute for me.
Foul was inside Covenant from the get-go. He only finally "accepted him inside himself" (note the dual meaning) at the end of TLD.
For that matter, Foul was also always inside everyone else (Linden, Jeremiah et al) from the get-go. But it was TC's unique issues, the specifics of his personal battle, that culminated in his need to "absorb" Foul. Linden and Jeremiah didn't need to do so in order to follow their True Selves. Their victory over selfishness lay along other paths.
IMO, the question of "what might happen next" is superfluous because these three have achieved wholeness, victory and salvation in interrelationship. They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss. The story really is over. That something could happen next (as wayfriend notes, "Endings to be useful must be inconclusive.") is beside the point. As it says on the dedication page, And they lived happily ever after. _________________
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
wayfriend whilom witling

 Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 20196
Thanks: 11 Thanked 246 Times in 225 Posts
Location: In reality once again 49195 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wosbald wrote: | They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss. |
(I wonder if I might entice you to contribute to the Family thread.) _________________ * I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda which is posted far too frequently on this website. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
Wosbald A Brainwashed Religious Flunkie

 Joined: 07 Feb 2015 Posts: 3779
Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts
13653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:


|
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
+JMJ+ wayfriend wrote: | Wosbald wrote: | They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss. |
(I wonder if I might entice you to contribute to the Family thread.) |
Assuredly. I'll give it a lookover. It's already 4 pages. Not sure I'll have anything to contribute, but I'll keep it in mind. Thanx, yo. _________________
|
|
Back to top |
|
 |
DrPaul Giantfriend
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Posts: 469
Thanks: 3 Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
2506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:

|
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
wayfriend wrote: | Forgot to add... if Hile Troy can become Caer-Caveral and live for 3500 years, I think Covenant can live pretty much as long as he wants to. And it says somewhere in the first Chronicles that service to the Earth grants long life. |
Yes. When Covenant is translated early in TIW he notices that Mhoram and Tohrm both look younger than they should given that 40 years has elapsed since the events in LFB, and when he asks Tohrm about this Tohrm explains that serving their lore and Revelstone has kept them young. The Old Lords had a deeper knowledge of the lore and had lifespans of several hundred years; Kevin was High Lord for 1000 years before dying an untimely death in the Ritual of Desecration. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
High Lord Tolkien Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH

 Joined: 19 Oct 2004 Posts: 7054
Thanks: 14 Thanked 51 Times in 49 Posts
Location: Cape Cod, Mass 2952 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:
 

|
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dlbpharmd wrote: | I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds. |
I hate that.
I call it poor writing. _________________ https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again! |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
DrPaul Giantfriend
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Posts: 469
Thanks: 3 Thanked 12 Times in 10 Posts
2506 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP
User Items:

|
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
And further to my last post, later in TIW Elena confirms what Tohrm has told Covenant and elaborates on it. |
|
Back to top |
|
 |
|