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Gender and Restrooms in School
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Gender and Restrooms in School Reply with quote

The article from [url=america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/1/transgender-bathroom-bills-are-a-statewide-trend.html]AJA may be found here.[/url]

In short, several State Legislatures are proposing bills which would require students in school to visit the restroom which coincides with their genetic gender (XX for females, XY for males) rather than their self-realized gender identity. Opponents of these bills have coined a wonderful sound-byte zinger, calling them "bathroom bully" laws. Some laws go a little farther and prevent any place with gender-separate restrooms/shower areas/changing rooms such as gyms to allow anyone with a Y chromosome to enter the ladies' room; allowing this to happen could result in the business being fined and it owners/operators being sent to jail.

I am not a psychiatrist but in my opinion if you want to find out what gender you are then take all your clothes off and look at yourself in the mirror. If you see a penis and testes then you are a male and if you don't then you are a female; I will not consider the rare cases of hermaphroditism or XXY or XYY as those are special cases. Based on this, enter the restroom/shower room/changing room based on that gender. Objections such as "but I know that I am girl" are easily countered with "how do I know you aren't just trying to get into the girls' room to sneak some free peeks and naked girls?". Would you want your wife or daughter to go into a womens' room and risk some dude trying to follow them in there simply because he felt like a woman that day?

I don't doubt that people who are trans have had some serious struggles in their life--it cannot be easy to suffer through identity problems. That being said, in my opinion--my non-medical opinion--the real root of their identity problem is not their biological pieces and parts but because someone damaged them psychologically in some way at some point. There is no other reason an 8-year-old boy, as cited by the personal story in the article, would self-identify as a girl.

On the other hand, our Declaration states that we should have the right to pursue our own happiness--if your chromosomes say XX but you know deep down that you are male then by all means go for it. Just like some of my rights stop where they infringe upon your rights, though, your right to pursue your self-identity stops when it means potentially crossing the lines of sexual harassment or being some sort of subtle peeping tom.

All things considered, I do not think laws like these are really necessary. Just because someone is trans doesn't mean they are going into a restroom to sneak some free peeks at people. They go to the restroom for the same reasons the rest of us go--they need to take care of a different biological urge. Truthfully, if some guy wants to see naked or partially naked females he will do so via his computer in the privacy of his own home.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unisex bathrooms and locker rooms.

Problem solved.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly--the simple solutions are usually the best ones. If you don't want to use the gym's unisex locker room then change at home before you go.

Truthfully, I can't imagine that any female wanting to trans to male would willingly go into a men's room.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already see this in places. They have Mens, Womens, and Family (which has a picture of both sexes)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender and Restrooms in School Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
the real root of their identity problem is not their biological pieces and parts but because someone damaged them psychologically in some way at some point. There is no other reason an 8-year-old boy, as cited by the personal story in the article, would self-identify as a girl.


Yet the research is trending strongly the other way. That gender is very much dependent on the brain. Partly in the genes you get...then partly in the expression of them, affected by events in the womb. Perhaps post-birth, too---though I've never run across a good study on that.

There is a ton of science out there...but here's a quote and a link for ya of one I spotted last week/early this week?
Quote:
Prof. McCarthy and Nugent injected Dnmt inhibitors into a specific region of the female brains, a region known as the preoptic area, or POA. In every species that's been studied, including humans, the POA plays a key role in governing male sexual behavior.
[[snip]]
The female rats also behaved differently, displaying sexual behavior typical of male rats. In another experiment, they genetically deleted the Dnmt gene in female mice; these animals also showed male behavior patterns

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150331121249.htm

Unisex probably makes sense...but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Seriously, why are bathrooms such a problem?
Sometimes I think the entire thing is men not wanting their illusions shattered by the fact that women have bodily functions that aren't aesthetically pleasing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender and Restrooms in School Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

Yet the research is trending strongly the other way. That gender is very much dependent on the brain. Partly in the genes you get...then partly in the expression of them, affected by events in the womb. Perhaps post-birth, too---though I've never run across a good study on that.

There is a ton of science out there...but here's a quote and a link for ya of one I spotted last week/early this week?


Hence the whole "non-medical opinion" disclaimer I used earlier. The causes of the identity crisis are, for practical purposes, irrelevant--we don't need laws about this when unisex restrooms are the easy answer.

What is going to be problematic is when a male who is transitioning over to female enters a restroom and the females already in there claim harassment. Currently, sexual harassment laws are set up so that harassment is defined according to the perception of the victim. Whose rights are going to trump the other's, the female feeling harassed or the trans wanting to visit the restroom which aligns with their self-identity?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender and Restrooms in School Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Vraith wrote:

Yet the research is trending strongly the other way. That gender is very much dependent on the brain. Partly in the genes you get...then partly in the expression of them, affected by events in the womb. Perhaps post-birth, too---though I've never run across a good study on that.

There is a ton of science out there...but here's a quote and a link for ya of one I spotted last week/early this week?


Hence the whole "non-medical opinion" disclaimer I used earlier. The causes of the identity crisis are, for practical purposes, irrelevant--we don't need laws about this when unisex restrooms are the easy answer.

What is going to be problematic is when a male who is transitioning over to female enters a restroom and the females already in there claim harassment. Currently, sexual harassment laws are set up so that harassment is defined according to the perception of the victim. Whose rights are going to trump the other's, the female feeling harassed or the trans wanting to visit the restroom which aligns with their self-identity?


I'm with you on your first statement, essentially if you possess a penis and testicles at birth, then you use the male restroom; possess a vagina, and you use the female restroom. Problem solved .
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this an issue in Europe?

Just curious...I doubt this would be such a big deal if American Christians weren't taught to be ashamed of their sex. Hell, you never even see or hear the word sex used to describe the biological characteristics which define if an organism is male or female. The popular term in the late 90s was "gender." Unfortunately, it stuck.

"Boys have penis and girls have vagina." - 5 year old in Kindergarten Cop

Get over it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Unisex bathrooms and locker rooms.

Problem solved.


^ That. ^ Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But... then we won't cater to the capricious whims of the transgendered!

I was talking with my friend about the difference between the homosexual fight for equal rights and the transgender fight for equal rights: in the first, you have "treat us like you would treat anyone else." In the later, you have "you must treat us like this or you are a bigot!"

As a result, you can see why the first has made greater strides towards their goal than the later. Average Joe looks at the gay issue and can easily say, "Oh, it really does not affect my behaviour if they have equal rights, why not?" Where as with the transgendered, "Wait, I have to what? Assigned gender, what nonsense is that? I have to use what pronoun? It depends? I have to treat you as a female even if you have no intention of having a sex change operation? Wait, what? Go fuck yourself!"
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have said for years that the homosexual community has done themselves no favors aligning themselves with the transsexual/transgender communities.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
...equal rights...


Maybe if we just treated everybody equally? If we treated men and women the same, then it wouldn't make a difference which you claimed or wanted to be.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Orlion wrote:
...equal rights...


Maybe if we just treated everybody equally? If we treated men and women the same, then it wouldn't make a difference which you claimed or wanted to be.

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That quote is taken out of context!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The context is immaterial. Wink If the problem is that men want to be treated as women (and vice versa) it wouldn't be a problem if men and women were treated the same anyway, would it? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As soon as women want to be treated like men, we can talk about that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
The context is immaterial. Wink If the problem is that men want to be treated as women (and vice versa) it wouldn't be a problem if men and women were treated the same anyway, would it? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
As soon as women want to be treated like men, we can talk about that.


Well, I'm sure transgender women want to be treated as men. (But I see what you're saying. Very Happy Maybe all men should be treated like women instead. Very Happy )

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the closest thread to this news story.

What the heck is this crap? [url=america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/10/21/california-sets-policy-for-inmate-sex-reassignment.html]California prison systems will begin offering hormone treatments via its medical program, paving the way for trans inmates to begin the process of gender reassignment[/url]. This is stupid--it is not the function of government, whether Federal, State, or local, to pay for elective medical procedures. I don't care how desperate you are to become the gender you feel you are, you will not die if you don't get hormone treatments or reassignment surgery; thus, the procedures are elective.

Why not offer hair color treatments so inmates can change that? Why not offer color-changing contact lenses so they can have the eye color they want? Why not offer rhinoplasty so inmates can have the nose they want?

Personally, I don't care whether you are male and happy with that, female and happy with that, male and unhappy with that, or female and unhappy with that--your gender identity concerns are your concerns, not mine. I may wish you luck on your journey to find yourself, find happiness, or both but I am not going to contribute any money to your journey, either...nor should I be required to do so via taxes. (no, I don't live in California but the principle still applies)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I don't care how desperate you are to become the gender you feel you are, you will not die if you don't get hormone treatments or reassignment surgery; thus, the procedures are elective.


I'd have to look around to be sure...but I'm fairly confident that the basis is classified as an illness, and the hormones and surgery are the treatment/cure.
What other medical/biological problems are we OK with not treating/curing? Who gets to decide?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

I'd have to look around to be sure...but I'm fairly confident that the basis is classified as an illness, and the hormones and surgery are the treatment/cure.
What other medical/biological problems are we OK with not treating/curing? Who gets to decide?


I would argue that the decision rests on this simple question: if the "illness" is not treated will it result in the physical death or physical deterioration of the patient? Everything which is normally classified as a disease fits this definition--infections, STDs, cancer, central nervous system disorders, etc. Mental/emotional conditions such as gender identity or body identity will not result in the physical deterioration or death of the patient--no one will die because they have two legs instead of the one they think they should have or because they have breasts and a vagina yet they know they are male. Those are not conditions which need to be treated via surgery.

On the other hand, if someone who thinks their left leg shouldn't be there and they find a doctor willing to remove it for them then I am not going to tell them "no", presuming they pay for it themselves rather than having the procedure covered by Medicare or other such program. Good luck finding medical insurance that covers "corrective" surgery for body identity disorder, though--those policies don't exist. They don't exist because it isn't medically necessary....just like gender reassignment isn't "necessary". The person in question might feel it is necessary but medically is isn't.

We all get to decide.

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