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Calanders and Leap years
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peter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Calanders and Leap years Reply with quote

We opperate the Gregorian Calander, the most widely used civil calender internationally, introduced to Chrisendem by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. Given that Easter is held on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the sring equinox, which falls annually on or around the 20th March and is the day on which the hours of light equal the hours of darkness, the fact that there are not a whole number of revolutions of the earth upon it's axis in the annual passage of the Earth around the Sun [there being in fact about 365 1/4 days in a year] means that were not periodic adjustments made to the calander, the months of the year would not remain fixed in respect to the seasons that they occur. It is by a balancing of so called 'common days' and 'leap days' that the calander date of the equinox is kept from drifting more than a day from March 20th each year.

Leap days are added into the calendar once every four years on years that are divisable by four except when they occur on the turn of a century [ie years that are divisable by 100]. This latter condition is waved in the case of years that are divisable by 400, thus the year 2000 was a leap year, where 2100 will not be [because while it is divisable by 4 and 100 it is not divisable by 400]. This system will keep the calendar in balance for many years to come, running into the thousands I believe - but still other adjustments will need to be made.

Can anyone tell me what the next 'extraordinary' leap day will need to be over and above the rules outlined above; has it even been worked out. OR ... are the adjustments needed so small that they can be acieved using the addition/subtraction of 'leap seconds' on the international clock at the end/start of years?

[As an aside does anyone else agree that the co-opting of the year 2000 just the satisfy the 'aesthetics' of the situation, in order to celebrate the millenium was a mistake. Forgeting the birth of Christ aspect [and the fact that he bollocksed up the year calculation], When Dionysius Exiguus published De Temporum Ratione in 725 ad {on which the whole thing was based in respect of fixing the year date to the birth of Christ}, the concept of zero as a number was not as yet understood. Thus he began his calculations from 'the year 1' rather than the year dot. Thus the Millenium Cellebrations, in order to celebrate [what..... 1275 years of using the same calander]....er.... the millenium should have been held on 00.00 on the 1st Jan 2001. It's a fact; Am I right or am I right, I ask you! Rant ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that there's anything more defined by the Gregorian calendar.

Given that an Earth year is 365.2425 days:

+ A leap day every 4 years makes a year (on average) 365.25 days.
+ Eliminating a leap day every 100 years makes a year 365.24 days.
+ Adding a leap day every 400 years makes a year 365.2425 days.

That's dead on, and so no further adjustments seem necessary.

An even more accurate measure of days per year would be 365.242546.
The next adjustment that could be proposed would be to add a leap year every 20,000 years. This would bring us to 365.24255.

You can see why no one is worried about it yet.

peter wrote:
[As an aside does anyone else agree that the co-opting of the year 2000 just the satisfy the 'aesthetics' of the situation, in order to celebrate the millenium was a mistake.... Am I right or am I right, I ask you! Rant ]

We celebrate milestones. We celebrate them because of their significance. Significance is subjective. Reaching the year 2000 seems more significant than completing the year 2000, and so there you are.

In other words, the whole thing is a fluke of a base-10 numbering system anyway - so it's an argument about which meaningless coincidence has more meaning.

Don't even get me going on how unlikely it is that the calendar has been tracked accurately for 2000 years. It wasn't even introduced until 1582! The 2000 celebration is kind of like setting a clock to a completely random time and then celebrating when it says 12:00.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

Don't even get me going on how unlikely it is that the calendar has been tracked accurately for 2000 years. It wasn't even introduced until 1582! The 2000 celebration is kind of like setting a clock to a completely random time and then celebrating when it says 12:00.


Agreed. Calendars are so inaccurate that it is sometimes surprising that we still use them at all. Personally, I blame the Sumerians for imposing their ridiculous desire to try and arrange everything in terms of 12 or 60, a patchwork system which has been in use for thousands of years.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Calanders and Leap years Reply with quote

peter wrote:

Can anyone tell me what the next 'extraordinary' leap day will need to be over and above the rules outlined above; has it even been worked out. OR


I think it's the OR...the incremental ongoing adjustments keep things close enough for most [which WF's math shows]---the people who need really precise time don't go by calendars....oh, I see H is saying something related to that.
Base 12 has tons of great features, H...peeps have argued we should all switch to it. 60 is a bit awkward for convenience.

Anyway, aside peter---would you enjoy previous calendars better?
IIRC, the origins of the 12 days of Christmas derive from the fact that early peoples wanted their year to remain stable in relation to the moon. So every year, they just pretended 12 days didn't exist [most of them gave them some magical/mystical kind of existence/attributes].
Oh, this reminds me, I have to go to another thread and post something I saw about gravity/time/quantum/relativity.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Anyway, aside peter---would you enjoy previous calendars better?

We can switch to the Federation calendar, I suppose. (Which has never made any sense to me what-so-ever.)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any particular reason we gave the Earth's position on what we call January 1 the significance of the beginning of a new year?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bottom line: There’s no astronomical reason to celebrate New Year’s Day on January 1. Instead, our modern New Year’s celebration stems from the ancient, two-faced, Roman god Janus – for whom the month of January is also named. One face of Janus looked back into the past, and the other peered forward to the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Any particular reason we gave the Earth's position on what we call January 1 the significance of the beginning of a new year?


The Roman Consular year was set to start on January the 1st in the first instance by senate decree so that a particular general could take office early and thus lead his army's out of Rome to a particular war zone to greater advantage (or something similar - a pretty prosaic reason of no astronomical significance). Until quite recent times many considered Lady Day (the day on which the immaculate conception occurred and the Christ was made manifest in the world - March 25th I think) to be the start of the New Year.

As an ardent francophile I would happily have seen the revolutionary calander adopted across Europe and the world I think - Vive la France! I say Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to be that guy...

calender
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
calender

A series of hard pressure rollers used to form or smooth a sheet of material such as paper or plastic film?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He probably meant "colander", the bowl with holes in it used for straining pasta (or other things you have rinsed in the kitchen sink).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
I hate to be that guy...

calender


The guy who finally brings about the demise of California?
[[probably should have big C and a hyphen]].

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
He probably meant "colander", the bowl with holes in it used for straining pasta (or other things you have rinsed in the kitchen sink).


i believe that is a strainer.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synonyms.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
He probably meant "colander", the bowl with holes in it used for straining pasta (or other things you have rinsed in the kitchen sink).

i believe that is a strainer.

I agree - Hashi's conclusion is a rather a stretch.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying there are holes in my logic? That my argument doesn't hold water? That it boils down to nothing?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saying it could have used a little high pressure rolling to smooth it out a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Are you saying there are holes in my logic? That my argument doesn't hold water? That it boils down to nothing?


it's a wash...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Are you saying there are holes in my logic? That my argument doesn't hold water? That it boils down to nothing?


it's a wash...


Awwww...nah, sarge, it's just people horsing around trying to spice things up.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some mod should clean this thread up.
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