The House

[aTOMiC]

I heard the following the other day and wondered who each of you would be more sympathetic to. Its a more complex scenario than it seems.

You live in a typical suburban neighborhood.

The house across the street was built by a shady contractor that didn't care about bad wiring, substandard materials or that the house was built in a sink hole prone location.

The people that own the house across the street are ordinary folks and keep to themselves for the most part. They know that their house has major flaws but they have no real alternative but to live there and hope for the best.

One day the house across the street collapses and is uninhabitable.

The neighbors have no money to make repairs and the wife is 9 months pregnant and is expecting any moment.

Your neighbors break into your basement and begin living there. The next day the pregnant woman gives birth to a baby girl.

You are sympathetic to your neighbors plight but they broke into your home and you want them to leave.

You discover that according to the law, because your neighbor's baby was born in your basement, the newborn child now owns part of your house and cannot be forced to leave.

On her behalf her parents now say that because the child is part owner of the house she and her family shouldn't be forced to live in the drafty basement and they all should be allowed to move up to one of the first floor bedrooms and treated as equal residents.

Desperate, you go to the corrupt builder of your neighbor's house and demand that they make the home habitable again but the builder says it's not his problem and has you thrown out if his office saying that you are a horrible human being for wanting your neighbors to move out of your home in the first place.

How do you humanely reclaim your house?


This is indeed an analogy about illegal immigration.
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[Orlion]

[Zarathustra]

You probably should have had a fence around your house ...

But we all know that fences are the worst evil you can propose to build. Property lines should not be enforced or guarded at all costs!! To do so is racist.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche

[Skyweir]

I wouldve gone for a giant wall you babyist idiot.

A wall that keeps babies out.

But alas, sadly your analogy is flawed 😘 There neither is nor would be a law that would assign property rights or ownership to a baby, or on the sole basis of the geographic location of their birth.

😏
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[Hashi Lebwohl]

The neighbors broke into my house, therefore they must now answer to the police, who will remove the unlawful residents from my house. Did my neighbors have insurance on their house? If so, they should sue the shady contractor for every penny they can get then buy a new house on a better lot.

That analogy doesn't work very well, unfortunately.

Generations of immigrants in decades past managed to find their way here and become citizens legally. If they can do it then so can these new people.
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What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

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[aTOMiC]

Though there's no way to know exactly what each point of the analogy is trying to make it is clear it is addressing a number of issues.
The relationship of the US and it's neighbors south of the border.
Anchor babies.
Rights granted to illegal immigrants.
Neighbor countries unwillingness or inability to provide a positive living environment for their citizens.
The villification of the United States desire to help ( interfere ) with other country's problems.
The desperation inspiring foreign citizens to violate the sovrenty of another country to escape poverty or threats to their safety.
The struggle to find a way to deal with illegal immigrants at large with as much compassion and understanding as possible.
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[Cail]

Terrible analogy, as everyone has an option where to live.

But my answer is that they would have been shot when they broke into my house.
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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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[SoulBiter]

[Skyweir]

Quote

Somehow the law allows it

The analogy blends squatter Law, property law and ownership with immigration law ... which incidentally makes the squatters illegal anyhow and then introduces dreamers. Its an interesting scenario that ends up with the squatters shot presumably before they have an opportunity for childbirth .. problem solved.

So the moral of this story is illegal entrants should be rightfully shot. Its mightily fucked up lol 😂 and not in a good way 🙄
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[Hashi Lebwohl]

Illegal immigrants cannot have the situation both ways--they cannot disregard immigration laws with which they do not agree yet then try to turn around and claim various legal protections from being deported and/or cite laws as to why they should be receiving benefits. Either all the laws apply to them or none of them do. The rest of us are required to comply with the law; it is only equitable that they comply, as well.
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No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

[Skyweir]

The law is clear on this .. as illegals no domestic US laws apply to them. The end.

However, there are multiple international laws that exist to remind all states about humanitarian principles and their responsibilities with regard to displaced persons, refugees etc.

The point is illegal entrants would not be assigned property rights, let alone be awarded ownership. Its beyond ludicrous. Secondly, no law exists in any state that assigns legal ownership, property rights or anything akin to that to a minor.

For this reason the analogy is flawed.
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[Skyweir]

So perhaps we need to set aside the flawed analogy and just talk about immigration, immigration law and children born in the US of illegal entrants.
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[Cail]

If you believe in the validity of national borders....

If you believe in the sovereignty of individual states....

If you believe that sovereignty entitles those states to define who's allowed within their borders....

If you believe that sovereignty, combined with the legal police powers of those states, allows the state to enforce said border and immigration policy as defined by the laws of that state....

Then this is a simple exercise. Anyone within the borders of a sovereign nation-state without the express permission of said state is - by definition - an illegal alien, and subject to deportation, regardless of how they got there.


If you take issue with any of those things, then you take issue with them all. If a state can't implement and enforce it's own immigration policy, then you don't believe in either sovereignty or the validity of national borders.

It's really that simple.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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[Skyweir]

Yep no argument here with any of that... lol 😂

But isnt this really a discussion about what that policy could or should look like.... 😏
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[Cail]

[aTOMiC]

Just to be clear there is hardly anything literal in the analogy. The point has nothing to do with breaking into an actual house or property rights given to children. Just saying.
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[Cail]

I get that. The point is whether or not sovereign states have the moral authority to determine who's allowed within their borders, or whether their sovereignty and the borders are void.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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[Holsety]

If you think illegal immigration is bad, try having me as your kid. I probably cook worse, clean worse, act worse and think worse than most illegal immigrants. I'm not sure why my parents put up with me. We shouldn't even have naturalized citizens based on being a child of two American citizens who live here. It's too easy an assumption. Before any immigrants are deported, deport me. To where I don't know. Maybe the sidewalk in front of my parents house.

Also remember that each individual citizen does not own this country entire. I know this does not destroy every point the analogy makes, but it must be understood that if a citizen objects to the deportation of an immigrant, you effectively have a member of the household objecting. This probably leads to questions about individual states rights and federal govt (which, being an amalgamation of state representatives, votes and such, can probably be aeen not a higher government and more of a mixed government. I could go on about the court system but honestly what do I know?) I suppose Donald Trump counts as closest (at least nominally) to our head of household, making him head of the patriarchy.

Another complicating factor is America's (or any country's) intervention in one way or another in other country's affairs. Remember that in this analogy, applied to the country which as far as i know most of us live in, we have some responsibility in the shady construction of other houses on our block.

Edit: DEPORT THOMAS COVENANT

[Skyweir]

Cail .. thats not the point that is irrefutable fact🧐. Sovereign states have absolute authority and power to govern themselves, their citizens, make domestic laws and enforce them. Thats not really in question.


Holsety... you make some very interesting observations.
What do you mean when youve note that the US has a responsibility over other .. countries .. houses.

Is that a moral imperative.. or is it derived by other considerations..

Apologies for lack of punctuation
Cheers
sky 😊
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[Cail]