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Israeli Scientists to Find Cure For Cancer . . .
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinswatch wrote:
You're the one who started making this a political thing by posting it here.

And sure, I understand. I find things weird too. Like when people make a topic to talk about how awesome Israel is (which is fine) and then take pot shots at Palestine for no reason ("None came from the Palestinians").

Very odd.

-jay
It's odd to discuss politics in a political forum? It's odd for a supporter of Israel to criticize the guys who lob rockets at their civilians? I am taking pot shots at the Palestinians because they take literal shots at Israel. And when they do, the world seems to always side with them, even though Israel is doing awesome things like trying to cure cancer, while the Palestinians contribute nothing to mankind except finding creative ways to use their own people as human shields.

If you disagree, fine. That's what we do here. I honestly don't have much else to say on the topic other than what I've already said.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Z you missed the point

Its a science story .. that you are making political. The science story has no element of anti Semiticism or anti Zionism or even anti Iaraelism.

Its a good news story which you assume will meet with disdain simply because the scientific team happen to be Israel based.

I doubt any level headed human would pop poo a critical study like this based simply on the basis of nationality.

I hope this results in a win for humanities sake
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

'Highly Irresponsible:' Israeli Company Claims to Have a Cure for Cancer, but Scientists Say Not So Fast

Quote:

This undated fluorescence-colored microscope image made available by the National Institutes of Health in September 2016 shows a culture of human breast cancer cells Ewa Krawczyk / National Cancer Institute via AP


Scientists quickly rejected the claims, calling them 'spurious,' 'unsubstantiated' and even 'cruel'


A team of scientists at a biotech company in Israel claimed that they will have a cure for cancer -- all cancer -- within a year.

Sadly, their claims were shot down by fellow scientists.

In recent articles in Israel and the United States, Accelerated Evolution Biotechnologies Ltd., or AEBi, which was founded in 2000 from the ITEK Weizmann technology incubator, announced that a new treatment being developed by the company would offer a complete cure for cancer with "no or minimal side-effects at a much lower cost than most other treatments on the market."

The treatment, according to Dan Aridor, chairman of the board of AEBi, and CEO Dr. Ilan Morad -- which they call MuTaTo, or multi-target toxin -- works essentially like a cancer antibiotic, they told the Jerusalem Post. They said the results of pre-clinical trials have been very good.

But fellow scientists quickly rejected the claims, calling them "spurious," "highly irresponsible," "unsubstantiated" and even "cruel."

[...]

Writing in Forbes, Victoria Forster, a cancer researcher and child cancer survivor, called AEBI less than forthcoming with information about their alleged cure.

"Delving into what the company does supply, there are two graphs and some pictures taken down a microscope, much less than I provided from a 6-week undergraduate research project a decade ago," she wrote.

She also calls a claim that one cure will work for all of the over 200 different types of cancer out there a "huge red flag" that such a claim is "highly unlikely."

Meanwhile, she notes, the American Cancer Society published a blog article from their deputy chief medical officer explaining why the company's claims are unlikely to be true, including that their approach isn't that unique and that other similar approaches have failed.

[...]

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
No Z you missed the point

Its a science story .. that you are making political.
How can I miss a point that I made myself?

In the opening post, I wrote:
I put this in the Tank because it's 'bout to get political, y'all! Twisted Evil


I know it's a fucking science story. I know I'm making it political. I did that on purpose! Jesus. You don't have to point it out to me. I did this by design. It's a political forum. I WANTED to make it political.

Wos, in what way do you think the 2nd article makes a different point than the first one you posted? I thought we addressed this already. People are skeptical. So what?

Why is it "cruel" for scientists to say they hope their research will give a cancer cure? Don't you think that such criticism is over the top? This announcement doesn't hurt anyone. If it gives hopeless people something to hope for, so what? No more cruel than saying, "I'll pray for you."
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd say these guys are probably scum. Anybody who knows my history on this forum should know that I'm pretty strongly pro-Israel (though anti-Bibi and not a big fan of Likud in general post Ariel Sharon, but hey), even anti-Palestinian when it comes to the government. It's all a bit of a shit magnet that I think is only going to increase antisemitism in the long run. Hope to be proved wrong, though.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

Why is it "cruel" for scientists to say they hope their research will give a cancer cure? Don't you think that such criticism is over the top? This announcement doesn't hurt anyone. If it gives hopeless people something to hope for, so what? No more cruel than saying, "I'll pray for you."


It's not cruel if they are:
1} Getting positive results in the research they are doing.
2} Or think they are, and are simply mistaken.
3} Or have good initial indications, but it fails later for whatever reason.
4} Have some evidence for the above.
5} Probably some other things, too.

It IS cruel when they are:
1} Lying.
2} Numerous kinds of manipulation, fame-seeking, or absurd jumping ahead of evidence. [[like suggesting cure them all, in a year, when you can't even get APPROVAL for a trial, because you have no evidence to submit]]
Cuz that's not hope.
When people send thoughts and prayers...well, it's not usually cruel or meant to be...they're wishes, support, sympathy. No one EXPECTS a cure, promises or predicts one [even if believe/hope a cure happens].

I suspect these people fall in the cruel mode. I HOPE I'm wrong.
I'd hope the cure was real, even if the scientists were Putin, Trump, and Kim Jong Il.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Officially, Israel's unemployment rate is about 8%. But that doesn't include Israeli citizens who are not trying to find work, either because they feel disenfranchised, such as many Arab Israelis, or because they've chosen a life of state-subsidized religious study, such as many ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Nearly 27% of Arab men and 65% of ultra-Orthodox Jews don't work, government figures show. The non-employment rate for ultra-Orthodox men has tripled since 1970, Ben-David said.

"We support a lifestyle of nonworking that is pretty unparalleled in the Western world," said Ben-David, who is also a Tel Aviv University professor. "On the one hand, we have this state-of-the-art part of the economy. Then there is the rest of the country that is like a huge drag."
What worries Ben-David most is that the nonproductive part of Israel's population, which survives largely on welfare, is also the fastest growing.

Quote:
May 10, 2010
[url]articles.latimes.com/2010/may/10/world/la-fg-israel-idle-20100511[/url]


how much more of our taxpayer dollars are subsidizing these foreign "parasites" today?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl, which guys are scum? The scientists? Just for making a claim without publishing first? If it turns out they were wrong, they won't be any worse than every other scientist who failed to cure cancer. Being mistaken about your research doesn't make you scum. Being overly optimistic doesn't make you cruel. I know you support Israel, but I don't understand the strong language in criticizing them. Is it just me? Because it's my thread?

Esmer, Israel's labor participation rate is about 63%, same as here in America. Your article is about a decade old. But thanks for bashing Israel for a completely unrelated point! Makes me look less crazy, here. Laughing

Lots of foreign countries receive aid, and some of them aren't friendly to us. I'm not usually an advocate of foreign aid, but if we're going to give to someone, might as well be an ally surrounded on all sides by neighbors who want to obliterate them.

So: scum, parasites, liars, fame-seekers, manipulators . . . yep, just your typical scientific discussion. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


So: scum, parasites, liars, fame-seekers, manipulators . . . yep, just your typical scientific discussion. Laughing


You are the one who chose...on purpose...to make the issue the people, the politics, the fact that it's Israel, and not the potential or existence of the science.

The authors also chose their method of release, and probably a bad choice---as if no one is wary, and they haven't learned the lesson, of things like Cold Fusion, Vaccines Cause Autism, Climate Denial, not to mention the medical/health scams of all kinds...

what was that one thing you were in a tizzy about a couple years ago?...some disease supposedly swarming from central american illegals or some non-white immigrants and infecting/killing kids in the mid-west? How wrong were your sources and you about that? How much did you harass people who said it wasn't happening, were skeptical, doubted?
And your motives were definitely all about where/who it came from.

But apparently, there is too much doubt of anything Israel for no good reason, cuz they're the total bomb...

Literally no one cares if they're Israeli...except you.
They only care if they're full of bullshit or not...
And whether the bullshit [if it exists] is accidental or on purpose.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I said "probably." Anybody, whether Israeli, American, or Klingon, who touts having cured cancer to bring in funds and/or publicity, without actually having done so is, in my book, scum. I believe the Hebrew word for it is "mefagrer."

Second, and just for the sake of argument, why flamebait, poisoning the well in the process, then act upset that I took a tone with the subjects of your article for supposedly personal reasons. Wasn't that the point? Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say what you want but Israel has been developing some breakthroughs that could change things for many. Nano drops to replace laser eye surgery is something I read about several months ago. Supposed to do testing on people this year. The tech is being developed in Israel.

Even if this treatment being developed only cures certain cancers, those people with those forms of cancer will be happy to get that, regardless of where it comes from.

Vraith - that last post on this thread from you was pretty close to outright accusing Z of being a racist when he has said nothing that would make anyone think that. So if being an "Asshole" is something we all are trying to not do, you are failing miserably.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:


Vraith - that last post on this thread from you was pretty close to outright accusing Z of being a racist


You could read it like that...but it was a description of issues in that kerfluffle at the time...

"Say what you want about Israel"...has nothing to do with it. Have no interest in saying [or not saying] anything in particular about Israel in re this "cure" thing.
The point was: Then, like now, a huge socio-political issue was made out of a thing for no good reason. And then like now, evidence--lack of--was a big part of it. A "fight" over things that were irrelevant or untrue or, as Syl more succinctly made my point: flamebait.

Taking flamebait and similar makes me laugh.
Some like to avoid it. Some think it just encourages the baiter. If I notice a hypocrisy or falsehood, non sequitur or absurdity, I'm fairly regularly going to play. Depending on my mood...until I hit a time of boredom/doldrums.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:


So: scum, parasites, liars, fame-seekers, manipulators . . . yep, just your typical scientific discussion. Laughing


You are the one who chose...on purpose...to make the issue the people, the politics, the fact that it's Israel, and not the potential or existence of the science.

The authors also chose their method of release, and probably a bad choice---as if no one is wary, and they haven't learned the lesson, of things like Cold Fusion, Vaccines Cause Autism, Climate Denial, not to mention the medical/health scams of all kinds...

what was that one thing you were in a tizzy about a couple years ago?...some disease supposedly swarming from central american illegals or some non-white immigrants and infecting/killing kids in the mid-west? How wrong were your sources and you about that? How much did you harass people who said it wasn't happening, were skeptical, doubted?
And your motives were definitely all about where/who it came from.

But apparently, there is too much doubt of anything Israel for no good reason, cuz they're the total bomb...

Literally no one cares if they're Israeli...except you.
They only care if they're full of bullshit or not...
And whether the bullshit [if it exists] is accidental or on purpose.


Agreed.

Again, It's fine if you want to be pro-Israel. I don't care one way or the other about Israel.

What I find is hypocritical is to post a pro-Israel topic and then dump on Palestine for no reason.

If you really only cared about how amazing this research is and how amazing Israel is, then just say so. Great.

But don't be so antagonistic and negative at the same time.

If you want to be a positive force in the world, be a positive force.

-jay
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:


So: scum, parasites, liars, fame-seekers, manipulators . . . yep, just your typical scientific discussion. Laughing


You are the one who chose...on purpose...to make the issue the people, the politics, the fact that it's Israel, and not the potential or existence of the science.
Me choosing to frame this in terms of how negatively people view Israel for reasons unrelated to this has no impact on whether or not you guys confirm that impression.

Vraith wrote:
what was that one thing you were in a tizzy about a couple years ago?...some disease supposedly swarming from central american illegals or some non-white immigrants and infecting/killing kids in the mid-west? How wrong were your sources and you about that? How much did you harass people who said it wasn't happening, were skeptical, doubted?
And your motives were definitely all about where/who it came from.


I don't remember being in a "tizzy" about anything, much less some disease from Central America. And you have no idea what my motives are, you can't speak for me. That's a fucked up thing to say. If we are not going to allow personal attacks in the Tank, I don't think we should allow people to imply that others here are racist just because they want to secure the border and protect us from (among other things) 3rd world diseases. If you want to make an accusation of me, back it up. Let's see the quotes. Don't just throw something heinous at my feet without proof.

Vraith wrote:
But apparently, there is too much doubt of anything Israel for no good reason, cuz they're the total bomb...
I don't know how many times I have to say that doubting a scientific claim is reasonable until it actually sinks in. I didn't say there is too much doubt. I said the criticisms, including the language, were over the top. There is no need to call a people "parasites" when all they've done (for this purposes of this thread) is have a few of their scientists possibly make a premature announcement of progress on a cancer cure.

Vraith wrote:
Literally no one cares if they're Israeli...except you.
That's *literally* not true. You even admitted up thread that there are people who are rooting for Israel to fail because they hate Israel. Perhaps no one here, of course, but I never said that. [It's annoying when people use "literally" as an exaggeration. The word literally means the opposite of that, Vraith.]

KW wrote:

What I find is hypocritical is to post a pro-Israel topic and then dump on Palestine for no reason.

If you really only cared about how amazing this research is and how amazing Israel is, then just say so. Great.

If you want to be a positive force in the world, be a positive force.
It's not hypocritical at all. I don't like Palestine primarily for how they hate Israel and try to kill its citizens. I don't like how in conflicts with Israel the world treats them as the favored underdog. Being pro-Israel and anti-Palestine are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are consistent positions.

I don't *only* care about how amazing Israel is, I also care how their critics fail to see it.

KW wrote:

But don't be so antagonistic and negative at the same time.
Why is it that people on your side of the political spectrum need to control the speech (or tone/attitude/motivations) of other people? I know it's your "effing board," but does that give you the right to dictate the personalities and debate styles of other people? How about I'll be me and you be you, and we leave it at that?
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Zarathustra wrote:
[...]

I don't like Palestine primarily for how they hate Israel and try to kill its citizens. I don't like how in conflicts with Israel the world treats them as the favored underdog.

[...]


Preach it, brother. That damn World. Always pulling the strings from behind the curtain.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wos, are you actually going to contribute to this discussion by getting some skin in this game? Will you dare risk giving an actual opinion of your own, rather than paste other people's words? Do you disagree with the notion that the Palestinians are treated as the favored underdog even when they instigate an attack up civilian Israeil targets and use their own people as human shields? What is your position?
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


Vraith wrote:
Literally no one cares if they're Israeli...except you.
That's *literally* not true. You even admitted up thread that there are people who are rooting for Israel to fail because they hate Israel. Perhaps no one here, of course, but I never said that. [It's annoying when people use "literally" as an exaggeration. The word literally means the opposite of that, Vraith.]


I literally meant no one here. Literally. And, AFAICT, it is literally true.

On the rest, it's apparently stuck in a circle for most of it, or we're playing nice now so I'll decline for now.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra in the MAGA kids thread wrote:
I think that the media has an *obligation* as professional journalists to get the facts right. While I think the rest of us have a responsibility to be skeptical, I don't think we have the same responsibility as the media.
At the risk of being accused of kicking a man when he's down...

We absolutely do have a responsibility to be sceptical (note the correct ENGLISH spelling) and scientists have an even greater responsibility to be so.

As I and pretty much everyone else have already said, scepticism is at the very heart of the scientific method (peer review, double blind testing, repeatability, independant audit etc etc).

Unlike several on here, I am not a huge fan of Israel - as far as Netanyahu's brand of apparently extreme and expansionist Zionism is concerned.

Having said that, my own guarded reaction to this piece of news would have literally (and I use the word advisedly) been identical, whether the story had come out of Israel, Palestine, North Korea, South Korea, France, Japan, the UK or the University of Podunk, Missouri.

BUT having now said that, I'm absolutely all for people being allowed to express whatever opinions they like, provided that they're prepared to have those contested and their justifications for such examined.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TF, believe it or not, I'm skeptical, too. But mine is more of the cautious optimism variety rather than piss on their parade variety. I think there is a lot of room within skepticism for all kinds. I just don't see the need to throw around terms like 'cruel,' or 'scum' when all you have to say is , 'I'll believe it when I see it.' I also think some are confusing outright disbelief with skepticism.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't expect anything less, Zee.

I have absolutely no issue with what I see as the very sensible guarded wariness from the two quoted US experts (Dr. Leonard Lichtenfeld and Dr. Ben Neel, as stated in Wos's posted article from the Times of Israel back on page 1 of this thread. I don't think there's anything in there that can be seen as over the top, let alone anti-Israel.

However the second article that Wos posted on this page was way more over the top and much more along the hyperbolically negative lines that you've been maintaining.

Wos's link to the original of that article doesn't seem to work, but I found the proper one. Here it is from Haaretz.com

But... Haaretz is a long-standing Israeli daily newspaper - and they're the ones publishing the negatively slanted story with headlines containing the words "highly irresponsible", "spurious" "unsubstantiated" and even "cruel"?

Interestingly enough, even though the Haaretz article puts all those headline terms in quotes, within the story itself, none of those terms are directly attributed to a speaker, just to "fellow scientists".

Even the one researcher quoted, Victoria Forster, wasn't overly negative, as can be seen here in the Forbes article she very recently wrote on the subject.

So, although I agree that some of the language used and attitudes shown towards the announcement have indeed apparently gone beyond healthy scepticism into the exaggeratedly negative, I simply can't see any trace of any anti-Israel motivation in any article quoted so far?
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