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President Trump (Part 2)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Point of order. For the bazillionth time, there was no domestic terrorism.


Hmmm, there was no coup attempt, and only technically an insurrection, but I'm not sure about this one. Is it not terrorism if your pipe-bomb isn't detonated? At the very least having pipe-bombs should be like "going equipped to commit terrorism" or something, particularly in light of the fact that the goal was to achieve a political objective, in respect of which using violence and intimidation is pretty much the definition of terrorism...

peter wrote:
Normally predictive text kicks in to correct my most egregious mistakes...


To be perfectly honest, "boarder" (rather than border) has always niggled at me...sorry...Razz

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Av I did stipulate earlier that the guy with the pipe bombs could and indeed should be labelled as a domestic terrorist. The fact that he never set them off is an irrelevance in his case.

What really got me steamed was the usual binary broadest brush strokes being used by some (including Pelosi and lamentably Biden too, though he's not repeated it) to paint the whole event (and by reflection, all those involved in it) as "domestic terrorism/terrorists".

That's just more deliberately hyperbolic, spin-driven and agenda-led bullshit which doesn't describe the reality of things in the least.

Separately, I have always winced at "boarder" too, but have bit my tongue. It was never as bad as "hypocracy" though - and as stated somewhere, I'll forgive Pete anything now after his delightful "cumupence".
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The House passed a measure calling on Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment....which is not their job to be doing. He won't, of course, not even after having been publicly thrown under the bus by his boss. They are also now currently debating impeachment articles--which is their job--but those won't amount to anything, either, since Trump will not be removed from office in that manner.

If the FBI had credible intel on 5 January and issued a warning, why was security at the Capitol decreased?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump Impeachment:

With 7 days left of the Trump administration, do ordinary Americans give a shite about this or is it just the hyper polarized politically obessed? Aside from a political gut punch to Trump and the Republican party, what will eating up valuable congressional time and effort accomplish? Even if they get what they want I doubt anything can be implemented before inauguration day making the whole effort moot in real time. Ignoring this asshat is the best course of action, besides keeping an eye on him so that he doesn't do anything idiotic on the way out. BTW I don't think Trump gives a crap if he's impeached 2 times or 20 times.

What happened at the Captiol was shocking and disturbing to me however I didn't jump to the conclusion that all Democrats are bent on anarchy because of a few thousand violent protesters and I won't make the same leap for the Republicans. Extremists are dangerous no matter how they are aligned. IMHO.

Also the security at the Capitol is ASS. Get it fixed. That is a good use of congressional time. The whole thing should have been and should be in the future, impossible. I hate being reminded how incompetent the government is. I used to think they had a pretty good handle on matters of procedure and security but everything I've learned from big, Hollywood blockbusters is wrong I guess.

On January 20th President Donald Trump will become a footnote and a cautionary tale for the history books. I'm not wasting any more time on a gas hole who will be a former president in less than a week.

The headlines should be dominated by information about what the congress is doing for us as a whole. What the new president is planning to do. Not this overload of political feuding.

This is one of many reasons why I hate politics. We should be much, much better than this but as a people we've chosen not to be. Its embarrassing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impeach him. He has to be held responsible. Let him be the only president impeached twice. Broke his hold on millions of Americans.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
On January 20th President Donald Trump will become a footnote and a cautionary tale for the history books. I'm not wasting any more time on a gas hole who will be a former president in less than a week.


The moment it became clear that Joe won, which took only a couple of days past the official Election Day, Trump became irrelevant. I am uncertain why his detractors could not accept that fact--they want to see him *pay*, for some reason. I don't even hate the people who have wronged me--including the one who attacked me with a knife--but those people simply cannot let him go. Somehow, in some way, he injured them to the very core of their being, which defies logic. Perhaps in a few years we can begin to understand the group psychiatry at work here.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

As We Again Impeach the Worst President in US History [In-Depth, Opinion]

Quote:



Let’s quickly recap the facts surrounding his terrorist assault on the United States of America, both to recall the truth and dispel the lies now being spread by the liars in the MAGA “prolife” cult.

John Podhoretz (not exactly a communist) summarizes who is responsible:

Quote:
This rally itself happened because Trump called for it. The crowds gathered because Trump called for them. They moved to the Capitol down the Mall because Trump said they should. The breach of the Capitol is Trump’s fault. Some in the crowd have stormed the Congress.

Donald Trump unleashed a mob on Capitol Hill. What he has done is without precedent in American history. Even if he had seven minutes left in his presidency, he should not be permitted to spend another second as the President. Nancy Pelosi should call an emergency session of the House tonight and impeach the president, and Mitch McConnell should convene the Senate tomorrow and call a vote to remove Trump from the presidency.


For a slightly more detailed timeline, Sam Rocha provides a good summary which he posted the day after the terrorist attack:

[…]

So, to recap, the people who assaulted the Capitol on January 6 were (we were told by MAGA) patriot heroes, beloved and encouraged by Donald Trump, who had just had enough of tyranny by the Deep State and bravely tried to Save America by stopping the final approval of the election of Joe Biden. Trump addressed them as his cherished ones: “We love you, you’re very special. We’ve seen what happens, you see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know you how feel.” What he did not say was “When the looting starts, the shooting starts.” Why? Because he knew the mob was MAGA and acting on his incitement.

"That mob of killers was out for blood.":

Quote:

(Win McNamee/Getty Images)


Those rioters, the bozos, were the ones who talked to the press, who waved gleefully to photographers, who selfied and streamed the entire afternoon, without even a thought that there might ever be consequences. They were doing it for the ’gram, and their story overwhelms the narrative because their faces and voices dominated the day.

But there were other rioters inside the Capitol, if you look at the images. And once you see them, it’s impossible to look away. The zip-tie guys.

Call the zip ties by their correct name: The guys were carrying flex cuffs, the plastic double restraints often used by police in mass arrest situations. They walked through the Senate chamber with a sense of purpose. They were not dressed in silly costumes but kitted out in full paramilitary regalia: helmets, armor, camo, holsters with sidearms. At least one had a semi-automatic rifle and 11 Molotov cocktails. At least one, unlike nearly every other right-wing rioter photographed that day, wore a mask that obscured his face.

These are the same guys who, when the windows of the Capitol were broken and entry secured, went in first with what I’d call military-ish precision. They moved with purpose, to the offices of major figures like Nancy Pelosi and then to the Senate floor. What was that purpose? It wasn’t to pose for photos. It was to use those flex cuffs on someone.


[…]


And that mob of killers, waving the Confederate and swastika banners, was praised by “prolife” doyenne Abby Johnson, compared to the oppressed peasants in Les Miserables by Raymond Arroyo, EWTN Boy Reporter …





… and egged on to war fever by Frank Pavone who boosted Lin Wood as “the best thing to happen to the GOP!” That would be the Lin Wood who was tweeting out calls for murdering Pence and other victims in Congress.





I’d share his crazy tweets, but Twitter permanently banned him on January 8. There are other bloodthirsty screenshots preserved forever by Google.

Likewise, also-now-gone-from-Twitter Rush Limbaugh praised the terrorists:

Quote:
“There’s a lot of people calling for the end of violence,” Limbaugh said. “There’s a lot of conservatives, social media, who say that any violence or aggression at all is unacceptable. Regardless of the circumstances. I’m glad Sam Adams, Thomas Paine, the actual tea party guys, the men at Lexington and Concord didn’t feel that way.”


The point is the MAGA “prolife” cult encouraged this kill crazy mob. So did 45% of Republicans, though those numbers seem to be in freefall. Because they are not about the dignity of human life from conception to natural death. They are about using the unborn as human shields for their raw nihilist lust for ruthless predatory fascist power by any means necessary. And fascists believe in the Big Lie.

That is why, suddenly, when it all failed, the narrative turned on a dime using one of the most beloved lies of the MAGA cult: the “false flag operation”. It works this way: every time the MAGA cult thinks or does evil, they attribute the evil they cherish and commit to those they hate. You can watch it working over the years.

Liberals, they said, could not wait for death panels to snuff the weak. Now that Trump has plunged us into pandemic, they tell us that death is a part of life and granny just needs to accept her fate and not be such a selfish coward. “Herd immunity” is their “strategy”, meaning “Let everybody get COVID and let the weak die by the millions”.

When a gun nut slaughtered children at Sandy Hook, they accused the parents of the dead children of running a false flag operation to make them look bad and tormented them for years. Same after Vegas, when they threatened victims and accused them of a massive hoax. Same with Parkland, when they lied that the Parkland kids were “crisis actors” somehow committing a hoax.

And, of course, the claim of election fraud is itself a massive act of projection from the cult where accusation is always confession.

So, of course, MAGA now declares that for some reason all the kooks wrapped in Trump flags and flying swastikas and confederate banners were actually Antifa and BLM (the black faces in that mob can be counted on one hand) and the whole thing was actually a false flag operation to make MAGA look bad.

Their evidence? Nothing. Rumor. “A guy told me.” Blurry photos of unknown provenance purporting to be Antifa according to @AnonymousFreedomEaglePatriotQANONCommandCenter on Parler.

Meanwhile, one of the many thoughtful things the Huns and Visigoths who overran the Capitol did was a) refuse to wear masks so as to better spread Pandemic and b) copiously photograph themselves so as to make it extremely easy for employers to fire and police to arrest them. See, for instance, this story in three acts:





As of this writing 80 people are behind bars and there will be a lot more soon. And thanks to the interwebs we know everything about these people because they left long paper trails on social media, just as they left their fecal and urinary tract DNA all over the halls of Congress. They are the dumbest criminals in the world.

So there is no evidence whatsoever that this was an Antifa false flag operation and a shit-ton (almost literally) of evidence that this was pure MAGA Meal Team Six and Gravy Seal Potatriots all the way.

And yet, in the teeth of this evidence we find MAGA priests like the exquisitely-named Fr. Richard Heilman engaging in a spectacular display of cognitive dissonance as he morphs seamlessly from praising the Patriot Heroes who marched on en masse directly from Trump’s Nuremburg Rally to storming the Capitol — and then Heilman suddenly declaring the terrorist mob to be nothing but Antifa false flag operatives!

Before the rally, he’s all bellicose war talk in keeping with his militarist grift (cuz nothing says Grace like Force):





He knows that this is a gathering of the Holy Ones of MAGA coming to fight another Revolution against the Evil Ones:





He hails the insurrectionists and boasts their numbers:





But then, suddenly, and without any intermittent change, the self-same people he praised above as patriot sons of the Second American Revolution are instantaneously changed into Antifa:





How does he know? He just does, okay? Because he is, like all MAGA, a Good Patriot and therefore immune to all sin, both original and actual and facts are liberal. It just has to be true because MAGA cannot bear the cognitive dissonance of being the Bad Guys. Their towering pride rejects it. Sin is for their enemies, not themselves.

For Normals, the only prudent conclusion is that people spreading this nonsense are either liars or people so radically psychologically ill that they cannot be trusted since they are at war with reality. Either way, we cannot let them have access to the reins of power in this country, nor to control of any modestly organized scout troop or quilting bee. They should be under a doctor’s care at best or in jail for treason at worst. But they should not be in charge of anything. Unfortunately, many of them are respected Christian figures and social influencers.

And that is the grave danger the American Church faces. Because this violent, dishonest, and now demonstrably deadly sect, while not the majority of the Catholic communion by any stretch, is still a big, scandalous and deadly minority at war with the Pope, at war with the Magisterium, at war with nearly the entire Church both nationally and globally, at war with reason, at war with truth, at war with democracy, at war with America and, in the end, at war with God.

What to do about that? I will think about it and get back to you when I formulate my thoughts, likely in piecemeal fashion, as is my custom. Meanwhile, if you pray, pray for America as you have never prayed before, because while this coup failed and is already falling into fratricidal war within the Trump cult, we are not fully out of danger till Trump is gone. If you don’t pray, exercise the virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude and work for the common good.

At the same time, have hope. Trump and the MAGA fascists threw their worst at America in the biggest act of domestic terror since the Civil War and our institutions withstood the stress test. Better still, the good guys won in Georgia, Trump is silenced forever on Twitter, numerous other lying weirdos were likewise muzzled on social media, and there is a decent chance that this time, the corrupt GOP, for utterly selfish reason, will finally kick this terrorist to the curb and vote to remove him, thereby ending his hope of ever running again. That’s worth a toast.

So thank God and trust him — and be on your guard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wos an honest question...

Do you actually buy into much of the verbiage you oh so religiously (pun intended) copy 'n' paste? I mean, do you actually read it and evaluate it, before regurgitating it? Or do you automatically consider it gospel (pun intended) truth, whenever the author's a minor Catholic commentator of some waste of space nature?

That latest piece above (from Mark P Shea apparently, who's some sort of Catholic blogger), for example? Does that have your total blessing and 100% agreement?

Because for every valid point he makes (and to be fair, there are a few, particularly when he's lampooning the far right nutjob talking heads), there's an equally glaring example of Prog Left hysteria, blatant misrepresentation and deliberate hyperbole.

This was apparently a "kill crazy" mob of dyed-in-the-wool "domestic terrorists", according to Shea. Well, with the caveat that there was at least one person who could quite rightfully be termed (and hopefully convicted) as a putative domestic terrorist, in that he went equipped with pipe bombs, let's just take a look at the facts.

How many people did this "kill crazy" mob of dyed-in-the-wool "domestic terrorists" actually kill? One. Tragic yes, but Officer Sicknick died the next day after having been hit with a fire extinguisher. Yes that's still murder, but to my knowledge, wielding a handily available fire extinguisher is hardly a sign of a well-equipped paramilitary raid.

The other fatalities as mentioned elsewhere were one of the "kill crazy" mob of dyed-in-the-wool "domestic terrorists" - Ashli Babbitt, the 14 year US Air Force veteran getting shot through a door by a cop - and three other members of the "kill crazy" mob of dyed-in-the-wool "domestic terrorists" having fatal heart attacks and strokes while outside the Capitol building.

So on that basis, I am calling utter fucking bullshit on Mark P Shea and at least 50% of his pre-judged hyperbolic and purely agenda-led diatribe. It's just more binary colour black and white painting with the broadest of paintbrushes and as such, bears no resemblance or relevance to reality and what actually happened at all.

And I note - with the bitterest of irony - that such demagogue tactics of deliberate over-exaggeration and knowing misrepresentation are literally exactly the same as those employed by Trump and his inner circle, which Shea spends pages haranguing them for. Talk about utter fucking hypocrisy.

So why, pray tell, is Mark P Shea any better? Where's his right to the moral high ground?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point of impeachment is to send a strong rebuke and bar Trump from future office.

It's a way of saving face for the country.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

TheFallen wrote:
[…]

So why, pray tell, is Mark P Shea any better? Where's his right to the moral high ground?


"Better" than Right-Wing Fascists?

AFAICT, he's not a Fascist, either of the Right or the Left. This, all by its lonesome, seems like a check in the plus-column of one's moral cred.

If he ever embraces Left-Fascism, then I'll hafta recalculate at that point, I 'spose.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panic buttons installed in US Capitol were 'inexplicably removed' before riot.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth Abramson:

(THREAD) Over the past week, this feed has compiled over 250 major-media reports about the January 6 insurrection Trump incited. Evidence of a four-pronged seditious conspiracy has emerged. I summarize this evidence—all previously posted—here. I hope you will read on and RETWEET.


1/ The main players in this thread (please note the recurrence of actors from Arizona and Alabama as well as the White House):

Trump
Giuliani
Rep. Biggs (R-AZ)
Rep. Gosar (R-AZ)
Rep. Brooks (R-AL)
Sen. Tuberville (R-AL)
Arizona Proud Boys
Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall

2/ The picture I discuss here is an emerging picture. All individuals discussed in this thread are innocent until proven guilty. This thread is a compilation/curation of evidence already publicly reported by major-media—not an attempt to imply a final portrait has been developed.

3/ In addition to the men listed in Tweet #1, the following men are also relevant to this account:

▪️ Ali Alexander, far-right activist
▪️ Roger Stone, friend and advisor to the president
▪️ Paul Manafort, former Trump campaign manager
▪️ Donald Trump Jr., son of the president

4/ As I mentioned, all pieces of evidence discussed in this thread were previously posted (with links, images, and videos, as appropriate) on this feed within the last week. Scroll through my feed since January 6 (inclusive) if you wish to find any or all of this key information.

5/ The phrase "Stop the Steal" was developed by Trump friend and adviser Roger Stone, a convicted criminal and self-described "political dirty trickster" who Trump rewarded with a corrupt presidential pardon during the possible seditious conspiracy described in this thread.

6/ In addition to being an associate of the Proud Boys as well as Trump, Stone was implicated in the Russia scandal—including not just contact with Kremlin cutout WikiLeaks in 2016, but contact with Israeli officials pre-election to get political intel via Trump's Turkish allies.

7/ Stone is a longtime associate of former Trump campaign manager Manafort, who the Mueller Report found colluded with a known Russian intel agent and who was recently rewarded with a corrupt pardon by the president. Trump has told friends Manafort could hurt him if he "flipped."

8/ Ali Alexander, a far-right activist, has confessed that he organized a "Stop the Steal" rally for January 6 as part of a "scheme" to stop Biden's November 2020 election landslide from being certified in Congress. He identifies Biggs, Gosar, and Brooks as his co-conspirators.

9/ After being developed using Stone's tagline ("Stop the Steal"), Alexander's event quickly merged with a "Save America March" being orchestrated by several "dark money" pro-Trump groups. Alexander's event—with a new name—ended up being the event Trump appeared at on January 6.

10/ One of Alexander's co-conspirators, Brooks, spoke alongside Trump and Jr. at the rally associated with the Save America March. At the rally, Trump, Jr., and Brooks all incited insurrection—Brooks, who'd already promised to challenge Biden's electors, most stridently of all.

11/ The Save America March got its name from Trump's Save America PAC—which raised $300+ million post-election on the false claim the cash was for "election defense"; instead, it went to (besides the RNC) Trump and Giuliani—and was planned by a Manafort company, Event Strategies.

12/ So the rally Trump incited insurrection at:

▪️ Took its tagline from Roger Stone;
▪️ was planned by a company Stone's associate Manafort worked for;
▪️ was allegedly part of a plot hatched by Biggs, Gosar, and Brooks;
▪️ featured Brooks, Trump, and Jr. inciting insurrection.

13/ At the January 6 rally, Giuliani told the crowd that Trump desperately needed the January 6 election certification delayed—and not delayed for a few hours, but for *days*. He promised the gathered mob that that delay would lead to *conclusive proof* Trump had won in November.

14/ If indeed there was a seditious conspiracy on January 6, it involved Trump allies inside the Capitol on January 6 artificially delaying Biden's certification long enough for the mob incited by Trump and his allies outside the Capitol to shut down the joint session completely.

15/ The key figures inside the Capitol on January 6 were Trump allies Gosar and Biggs, whose job was to object to the certification of Arizona's electors—leading to two hours of useless debate in the House—and Brooks' Alabama peer Sen. Tuberville, who would support the objection.

16/ While Trump and Giuliani could be sure Gosar and Biggs would—with the aid of Tuberville—force the joint session into a 2-hour debate, less clear was how to ensure the "Save America March" disrupted the joint session as Ali Alexander (and Biggs, Gosar, and Brooks) had planned.

17/ The alleged conspirators needed militants outside the Capitol who'd "spark" an assault on the Capitol once enough of the mob incited by Trump at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue had arrived at the Capitol. This is where the Proud Boys came to be of great utility to Trump.

18/ Trump had falsely said at a pre-election debate that he didn't know who the Proud Boys were; he did know, from his friendship with Stone, a major Proud Boys booster and mascot. That's why he told the group to "stand back and stand by"—which soon became the Boys' rallying cry.

19/ On December 12, the leader of the Proud Boys went to the White House, saying in advance of his trip (on social media) he had been "invited" there. Team Trump claimed that he had merely been on a Christmas tour of the White House. The truth of the matter still remains unknown.

20/ 7 days after the Proud Boy leader visited the White House by invitation, a Trump rally scheduled by a pro-Trump dark money group was moved to January 6. Within minutes, Trump was promoting it, saying that it'd be "wild." It had Proud Boy ally Stone's "tagline" attached to it.

21/ At the time a random Trump rally suddenly became the January 6 "march"—intended to coincidence with Congress' joint session—Trump was looking for a Representative to challenge electors during the session. He found Brooks, who then planned the January 6 rally with Alexander.

22/ At around this time, the Arizona GOP—with two of its most prominent leaders being apparent Alexander co-conspirators Gosar and Biggs—tweeted out one of the most bizarre/horrifying tweets of 2020: the party formally asked readers if they were willing to "die for" Donald Trump.

23/ Different states have different "Proud Boy" chapters. As Arizonans Gosar and Biggs were plotting with Trump a rally intended to lead to disruptive violence; and as the Arizona GOP the two men led was asking people to "die for" Trump; the Arizona Proud Boys became *important*.

24/ As noted, Trump and his allies needed a group of militants who'd be willing to spark the invasion of the Capitol. Trump ally Stone was close with the Proud Boys; the Proud Boys advocate using of violence; Trump had told them to "Stand by"; they'd adopted it as a rallying cry.

25/ An hour before the invasion began, a USCP officer now tells Buzzfeed News that he was unnerved by seeing a menacing social media message shown to him by a fellow officer. In the message, the Proud Boys use one of their usual online channels to promise to "breach the Capitol."

26/ According to the WSJ, the attack on the Capitol was launched when a group of men "in blaze orange hats" suddenly attacked a barricade. CNN later identified the use of "blaze orange hats" as connected to the Proud Boys, which the aforementioned Proud Boy leader angrily denied.

27/ Unfortunately for the Proud Boys, they decided to livestream their participation in the events of January 6. The early part of a 100-minute livestream shows Proud Boys in tactical gear with "blaze orange" arm bands and blaze orange strips of duct tape on at least one helmet.

28/ But the most damning moment in the livestream comes nearly an hour in, when the group of Proud Boys doing the filming encounters a group of their fellow Proud Boys on the street—all of whom are wearing blaze orange hats.

The men identify themselves as the Arizona Proud Boys.

29/ This same group—the Arizona Proud Boys—was separately photographed and tweeted about by Will Sommer of THE DAILY BEAST. It's unknown why both the leader of the Proud Boys and its founder falsely claimed on Parler that no Proud Boys were wearing blaze orange hats on January 6.

30/ In order to ensure that the sizable mob from Trump's rally would have an open path to the Capitol, the way had to be opened just before Trump's speech ended. A recent NYT timeline includes a picture of the Arizona Proud Boys—in blaze orange hats—at the Capitol at 11:50AM ET.

31/ Trump's speech at the Ellipse was very, very well attended. One reason it was so well attended is that Brooks' and Tubervillle's peers in the Alabama GOP had apparently been just as busy as Biggs' and Gosar's peers in the Arizona GOP had been. And they had a key role to play.

32/ The Republican Attorneys General Association (RAGA)—run by the Alabama Attorney General—was secretly running "robocalls" urging people across the country to go to Trump's Save America March. The Alabama Attorney General now claims that he had no idea what his group was up to.

33/ But the two most important Alabama Republicans were—without question—Brooks and Tuberville. The Alabaman Brooks was the first House member to say he'd contest Biden's win, and the Alabaman Tuberville the first senator to say he'd do so. (You need one of each to make it work.)

34/ During a speech at a rally he'd set up with Alexander, Biggs, and Gosar—using Stone's tagline and Manafort's event-planning company—Brooks *explicitly* told the mob to go to the Capitol and "kick ass." His full speech is absolutely terrifying. It is seditious, and incitement.

35/ So Trump and Giuliani had the Arizona Proud Boys at the Capitol barricade at 12, and the Arizona Congressmen inside the Capitol with objections ready; they had Alabama's Mo Brooks inciting insurrection at the rally and Alabama's Tuberville aiding the Arizonans in the Capitol.

36/ The problem was timing. How to time the rally, the march, an invasion of the Capitol, and the objections during the joint session in such a way that each event began at ended—or as the case may be, was violently interrupted—at the right moment. In the end, the timing was off.

37/ We now know that both Giuliani *and* Trump desperately tried to call Alabama senator Tommy Tuberville during the joint session—in each case calling the wrong man by mistake. And Giuliani was stupid enough to leave a *voicemail message* on the phone of Utah senator Mike Lee.

38/ Giuliani, in inciting the crowd at the rally—he demanded "trial by combat!"—had promised them he had up to *five* states he and Team Trump could legitimately challenge. But when he called Tuberville, he said that Trump needed Tuberville to object to a *stunning* "ten" states.

39/ Trump likewise called Tuberville to try to get the joint session extended. Let's be clear: there was *no benefit* legally, politically, or constitutionally to Trump or Giuliani to getting the joint session extended by a few hours unless they believed the *mob* would aid them.

40/ In speaking to Tuberville Giuliani made little sense. Team Trump had never challenged "10" states before—and Giuliani saying that such challenges would give Team Trump time to get "more evidence" was nonsense, as the joint session was going to end on January 6 no matter what.

41/ In the event, the Capitol was breached with substantial assistance—per WSJ—of the men in "blaze orange hats." And of those who breached the Capitol, the ones in tactical gear appear to have been most interested in either (a) accessing the House chamber or (b) taking hostages.

42/ The quickest ways to make it impossible for the joint session to conclude on January 6 would've been 1) for the electoral ballots—which were on the House floor—to be destroyed/stolen; 2) for a member of Congress to be taken hostage—as it'd preclude a full vote on Biden's win.

43/ But a third possibility was simply chaos—chaos that lasted so long the Congress lost the will or the logistics to continue their work on January 6. Team Trump could then set about litigating and lobbying over when Congress would meet to finish its work certifying Biden's win.

44/ Top Trump adviser Peter Navarro had already told Fox News that Trump had the power to "move inauguration day" if events demanded it—as sufficient chaos on January 6 might have done. So evidence of Donald Trump's reaction to the insurrection on that date becomes critical, now.

45/ According to half a dozen major-media reports, Trump's reactions to the insurrection included being "pleased," "excited," "delighted," "borderline enthusiastic," and having no interest in doing anything but "watching the show."

He "repeatedly" refused to call out the Guard.

46/ Ali Alexander articulates the plan he and Trump allies Biggs, Gosar and Brooks had in *identical* terms: he wanted the action outside the Capitol to directly and viscerally influence what was happening inside the Capitol, which is clearly what Trump wanted as events unfolded.

47/ The connections—and mutual interests—of the Proud Boys, RAGA, Tuberville, Brooks, Biggs, Gosar, Alexander, Giuliani, Trump, and Don Jr. (whose January 6 speech was the second-most inciting after Brooks') seem to be inarguable. The primary question is what contacts there were.

48/ An investigation must look to any key post-election contacts within Arizona (between Biggs, Gosar, the Arizona Proud Boys, the Arizona GOP and Alexander) and Alabama (Brooks, Tuberville and RAGA) and then if these entities communicated with the White House *or* with Giuliani.

49/ What is inarguable is that all of these men and entities—including Stone and Manafort—present a mass of interconnections, but an identical goal: using an "inside/outside" conspiracy (politicians in the Capitol, inciters outside it) to ensure Biden's win couldn't be certified.

50/ If sufficient additional evidence is developed—see my caveat atop this thread—the picture of a seditious conspiracy begins to emerge. And of course I haven't focused on the Pentagon, USCP or Guard piece much, except to note Trump wanted the end to the siege delayed maximally.


CONCLUSION/ The Trumps and Giuliani are undoubtedly capable of an anti-democratic plot—they did the same with Russia, Ukraine, China, and Trump's Middle East allies. Brooks is a maniac, and Gosar, Biggs, and Tuberville lack principles. So we'll see what the evidence reveals. /end

PS/ Please consider retweeting the first tweet in this thread (my pinned tweet), if you haven't done so already. Many journalists and politicians follow this feed—thousands, in total—but I'd love for this picture of the current state of the evidence to reach even more folks ASAP.

(UPDATE) Apropos of this thread, Maddow notes that the DC U.S. Attorney says he's using *public corruption* prosecutors—among others—to pursue "seditious conspiracy" charges.

This seems to suggest public officials are being criminally investigated. Perhaps ones I mentioned here.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1349142068061478912
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
The point of impeachment is to send a strong rebuke and bar Trump from future office.

It's a way of saving face for the country.
But what if this pisses off his supporters and they plan another attack because of it? Could we then say that the Democrats have incited them to violence?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
Impeach him. He has to be held responsible. Let him be the only president impeached twice. Broke his hold on millions of Americans.


I don't disagree that he deserves impeachment but its a bit like issuing a formal reprimand to an employee that's already quit.
Said employee couldn't care less and Trump is definitely someone that doesn't give a flip.

I just hate obvious government waste and this is expensive and wasteful at a time when we should be careful with our resources. Kicking someone in the ass (who deserves it) in the most time consuming and costful way possible isn't logical. But that's just me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
The point of impeachment is to send a strong rebuke and bar Trump from future office.

It's a way of saving face for the country.


After the last impeachment from a year ago, impeachment no longer qualifies as a "strong rebuke"--the House impeached for trivial reaons (the Ukraine phone call, which is actually part of his job). Also, impeachment does not bar one from holding future office; only conviction in the Senate can do that, which will not occur--again.

If politician want to save face then they should quit insulting American citizens by calling them "deplorable".

Ur-Nanothnir....there is a *lot* of wild speculation and conspiracy going on in that post. You might want to quit listening to fringe conspiracy nuts on social media. I stopped reading when he basically mentined "Russian collusion"--after years of investigation no one ever proved such a thing, so the rest is just wild ranting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't about removing Trump from office at this point. The Senate has the power to disqualify Trump from office again in the future.

In other words, this is the perfect opportunity to divorce the GOP from Trump. If Trump ran again in 2024, he would likely win the primary races. In order for other Republicans to stand a chance at nomination, they need to make it impossible for Trump to run again.

There are signs that the GOP wants to be rid of Trump forever. GOP leaders apparently warned Trump not to run again in 2024, and Mitch McConnell has indicated that he may be open to the impeachment process.

It also forces Republicans to be on record whether or not they support Trump still in light of the insurrection. A lot of Republican support is turning against Trump, so they would be crazy to still be so fiercely loyal to Trump.

There are also cracks in GOP unity with several Republicans now stating they will back impeachment in the House. The House tends to have more of the diehard Trump fanatics.

Prominent GOP Senate leaders have also strongly condemned Trump.

It may very well be that the Senate fails to convict Trump, again, but this is the perfect opportunity for the GOP to be rid of him once and for all. They should take this opportunity in order to preserve their honor.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
It isn't about removing Trump from office at this point. The Senate has the power to disqualify Trump from office again in the future.


Still unlikely to happen--that is what primaries are for, weeding out the candidates who are not wanted.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my point, Hashi. Unless the GOP refuses to give him the nomination, Trump will likely win the primaries and be the GOP's presidential candidate.

That would be a disaster for the GOP in a general election because there are hours of free soundbytes and footage that can be replayed over and over and over again, nonstop.

Trump has become political poison.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
ur-Nanothnir wrote:
It isn't about removing Trump from office at this point. The Senate has the power to disqualify Trump from office again in the future.


Still unlikely to happen--that is what primaries are for, weeding out the candidates who are not wanted.


The way we elect presidents is asinine. The current procedure makes it nearly impossible for the best person for the job to be considered. 331 million citizens of this country and only about 50 politically connected gas holes are ever in the running. The most important elected leader, perhaps in the world, and we treat it like a no holds barred, quality candidates need not apply, popularity contest. This is stupid on a galactic scale. If I were king of Earth I would overhaul the entire process.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Insurrection must be punished. Impeach Trump.
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