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President Trump (Part 2)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you clarify what you mean?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
QAnon conspiracy theorists believe that Trump communicated to them in Morse Code during his recent televised address to the nation.

The message they think he sent was "Q."


Wild conspiracy theory is wild. I would actually be shocked if Trump knew any Morse code at all.

What, did he blink his eyes in a certain pattern like--? oh, shit, I can't recall the name of that American POW who Morse-code-blinked for that film the Vietnamese took of him to show how well they were treating their prisoners.

Did he tap-tap-slide his finger like that character from Agent Carter?

As we have discussed here before, no one here ascribes to QAnon. Hell, we barely even know anything about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Can you clarify what you mean?


You are the only one who gives any credit to Q.

I don't even know where to find some if the sites you mention.

Til recent I didn't know how to spell Parler.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently a lot of people are familiar with QAnon given how widespread it is on social media.

Some of the recently elected GOP representatives are openly QAnon conspiracy theorists.

Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene are both QAnon supporters who were elected as GOP congresswomen. They wouldn't have been elected without a sizable chunk of people believing in that kind of garbage.

The FBI considers QAnon to be a domestic terrorism movement. Many of the rioters at the Capitol were wearing shirts with "Q" (for QAnon) or were openly espousing QAnon conspiracy theories on social media.

Lauren Boebert frequently carries a firearm inside Congress in violation of DC gun laws and refuses to go through a metal detector.

On the morning of the Capitol attack, she tweeted "Today is 1776 again." She also live tweeted the whereabouts of Nancy Pelosi and other Democrat leaders during the attack on the Capitol, when insurrectionists were actually inside the building.

QAnon has gone from being fringe to being mainstream within the GOP. The matter has actually been investigated and most Republicans actually believe in at least some QAnon conspiracy theories (such as Pizzagate, that some global pedophile Satanic cabal controls the US government).

Yes, I would consider QAnon a rather major threat rather than downplay it like you are doing.

As for Parler, it has always been a far-right echo chamber. It was created in response to "tech giants censoring only conservatives." Some other sites include Gab, Telegram, and Bitchute. Conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial is fairly common on these kinds of sites as they are, like I said, far-right echo chambers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, few more thoughts...

First, I wonder if perhaps the best thing that can happen (for America) is that there are violent demonstrations etc. on the 20th. Really give them a chance to lance that boil.

That said, I think the right-wingers would have to be stupid to actually do anything, especially given the heightened state of nerves everybody is going to be in, but there you go...it would be ugly in the short-term maybe, but better in the long.

Second...And I think this touches on what Nano was suggesting is that I think you make a mistake in believing Trump is the cause of all this.

On the contrary, he's just a symptom. A very noticeable one, but a symptom nonetheless. Impeaching him or 25thing him, or (my personal ideal solution) 14thing him, is not going to change much.

He's just the suppurating head of that particular boil. What pushed him into prominence was what was festering beneath it.

Oh sure, lay some consequences on him, it'll make you feel better. But the sheer sale of the vote should be pretty damn concerning to all involved. The number of people who were in favour of 4 more years of that was a bit shocking.

At the very least you need a minimum of 2 more parties to absorb the pressure of left and right fringes, otherwise existing parties are going to crumble.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Oh sure, lay some consequences on him, it'll make you feel better.
I don't think it should be done to feel better. I think we need to show that an exciting president won't be excused for doing something like this just because it was done in the last two weeks in office.

Avatar wrote:
At the very least you need a minimum of 2 more parties to absorb the pressure of left and right fringes, otherwise existing parties are going to crumble.
More parties would be better. Maybe no parties would be best.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
QAnon has gone from being fringe to being mainstream within the GOP.
I am sure that this is true to an extent. More true is that the types of messaging and material that one would find within QAnon are being disseminated much more widely via more popular online vehicles.

But - as Av's bang on point post above goes on to state, this is symptomatic (as is Trump) of a much broader issue - namely that of the quite deliberate propagation (and acceptance of that propagation) of a toxic and hyperpolarised environment by/from pretty much everyone - by both political parties, by media of whichever leanings etc etc.

Thing is, when it comes to aiding the increase of extremist fringe nutjobs or at least moving everyone towards one of those two extreme positions, it's the words and actions of the other side that is at least an equal cause of that.

So when Trump and his cadre demonise the entirety of the Dem party and any of its supporters by saying they're a bunch of election-stealing fraudsters, hellbent on foisting a socialist state on the USA... that is also going to help marginalise anyone left of centre and thus is liable to create more extremist Prog Left views within such people.

Exactly similarly, when Biden and the Dems condemn the entirety of the Pub party and any of its supporters as deplorables, as forces of Evil, as "domestic terrorists", all they're also liable to be doing is pushing those right of centre to a more extreme end of the seesaw.

That is precisely the frankly terrifying issue inherent in simplistic, binary, black and white, broadest brush stroke messaging and issue framing. Sure, it may be effective (otherwise why would both sides be doing it?) - but goddammit, it is unavoidably dangerously divisive - and over the last 4 or so years, that's been ever more self-evident.

I agree with Av - it would be hugely beneficial for there to be a new US political party (or even more than one) which moderates would feel comfortable supporting. Because there sure as hell ain't one now - nor any sign of either of the two existing ones deciding to perform any kind of u-turn and start appealing to the reasonable.

(The scary caveat here is one I've raised before - does a statistically significant number of reasonable and moderate US voters even exist any more? Because if not, then both existing parties will continue to kowtow to their fringes - since that's where the majority of votes they're after lie. And that will schism the USA).

Oh and...
Fist and Faith wrote:
I think we need to show that an exciting president won't be excused for doing something like this just because it was done in the last two weeks in office.
I suspect you probably meant "exiting" - but if I am wrong, hey, whatever turns you on... Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
But - as Av's bang on point post above goes on to state, this is symptomatic (as is Trump) of a much broader issue - namely that of the propagation (and acceptance of that propagation) of a toxic and hyperpolarised environment by/from pretty much everyone - by both political parties, by media of whichever leanings etc etc.

And yet this cannot be true.

The broader issue is that people have been presented with alternate versions of the truth, and have been convinced that the version that comes from hyper-partisan personalities and fringe web-sites is the real truth.

Which could not happen without a broad-base, continuously operating narrative that all other sources, where they might get the truth, cannot be trusted.

And the broad-base, continuously operating narrative is powered by a political party that would wither and die if the truth were ever believed by its base. By having a vast number of constituents believe the information they manufacture, which ALWAYS happens to support their agenda, and to never believe the truth which might put that agenda out of business, gives this party tremendous, unchecked power. Power which they use to direct the votes how they wish and eventually circumvent the democratic process.

So, no, this is not because of polarization!

But you can bet your life savings that the political party that invests in disinformation, having been caught wreaking vast damage to the country, are now going to try to blame someone else for it. Hence "it's partisanship". This way, blame is diffused to an ambiguous "everyone", rather than being laid where it should justly be laid.

It's all another lie to benefit the liars. That's their game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Oh and...
Fist and Faith wrote:
I think we need to show that an exciting president won't be excused for doing something like this just because it was done in the last two weeks in office.
I suspect you probably meant "exiting" - but if I am wrong, hey, whatever turns you on... Razz
Laughing Yup. I don't always thoroughly proofread on my cell. I think I'll leave it that way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Reckoning with our national flirtation with fascism [In-Depth, Opinion]

Quote:

National Guard troops are seen on patrol at the U.S. Capitol in Washington Jan. 9, 2021. (CNS/Tyler Orsburn)


She did it. Peggy Noonan brought up the Nazis in a column about President Donald Trump. In The Wall Street Journal, Noonan wrote:

Quote:
There have been leaders before who, facing imminent downfall, decide to tear everything down with them. They want to go out surrounded by flames. Hitler, at the end, wanted to blow up Germany, its buildings and bridges. His people had let him down. Now he hated them. They must suffer.

I have resisted Nazi comparisons for five years, for the most part easily. But that is like what is happening here, the same kind of spirit, as the president departs, as he angrily channel-surfs in his bunker.


It is an unwritten rule of journalism: No Nazi comparisons. Noonan broke the rule. She was right to do so.

Then former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger did it too, in a video message (text here) that was made all the more powerful because of his personal recollections and his thick German accent:

[…]

It was a powerful speech, and I could almost forgive him for paving the road from media stardom to politics, a path that should be obliterated.

The Nazi analogies are understandable even if, like all analogies, they are inexact. Mob rule is mob rule in any language, and the frenzied mob that assaulted the Capitol included many racists and anti-Semites. I look forward to seeing the man who wore the "Camp Auschwitz" sweatshirt testify before Congress or explain himself at a trial. I want all Americans to recognize the ideas and attributes of those who found Trump so appealing that they would try and subvert our democracy for him.

[…]

Most Nazi analogies fail because the evil of that regime was unique in human history. Oppression of peoples can be found in every century and continent, but most tyrants and most fascists put those they despised into some version of slavery. Hitler valued extermination even when it harmed his own war effort and hastened the end of his regime. There was a purity to his evil that remains unmatched.

Additionally, as Robert Paxton explained in his brilliant book The Anatomy of Fascism, "each individual national fascist movement gives full expression to its own cultural particularism. Fascism, unlike the other 'isms,' is not for export: each movement jealously guards its own recipe for national revival, and fascist leaders seem to feel little or no kinship with the foreign cousins."

I have commented before that if we are to invoke the mantle of fascism for Trump, it is Mussolini, not Hitler, who serves as the model. As I was watching the president last Wednesday address the crowd before it stormed the Capitol, the comparison was especially obvious as Trump displayed many of the same mannerisms, the way he steps away from the microphone to allow the applause to build, the cadences of speech, the self-confidence expressed by his puffed-out chest, the casual incitements to violence. A friend called to make sure I was watching. "Yes," I said. "I wish the cameras would pull back so we could see if Trump is at the White House or the Piazza Venezia."

The Italian army was not very adept at war, and so we tend to see Mussolini as a clownish figure, someone whom Hitler had to constantly rescue from his foibles. Churchill, as early as 1941, when addressing the Canadian parliament, referenced "the Mussolini flop." But Il Duce was capable of great evil. Hundreds of thousands were killed in Ethiopia by his troops, including several thousand civilians during the extra-judicial reprisal known as the Yekatit 12 massacre. His troops used mustard gas as well. Mussolini was also not averse to murdering political rivals, including his own son-in-law.

We do not know — and God willing will never be forced to find out — the lengths to which Donald Trump would have gone to preserve his power. In the weeks ahead, the degree of his complicity with the violence will be made known, and I suspect there will be plenty to shock us, as we were shocked to watch the violence unfold last week.

Now, as then, we can be shocked but not surprised. Did people think his repeated invocations of the Second Amendment had to do with principled constitutionalism? Can anyone doubt that there is a side of Trump's personality that really does admire the Proud Boys and other fascists who were among the mob last week, and admires them specifically because of their willingness to commit violence?

Sometime today, the House of Representatives will vote to impeach the president. There is insufficient time to try him in the Senate, but it is important that the House speak for the nation in deeming Trump's incitements criminal. Trials of many of those who assaulted the Capitol will ensue, and congressional hearings will be held.

It is important that the nation witness a thorough investigation into the flirtation with fascism we have just experienced. The boil on our democracy must be lanced with all the majesty and justice of which our democracy is capable. We will know we are returning to normalcy and decency when we no longer have to ask ourselves if it is appropriate to use a Nazi analogy.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The broader issue is that people have been presented with alternate versions of the truth, and have been convinced that the version that comes from hyper-partisan personalities and fringe web-sites is the real truth.

Which could not happen without a broad-base, continuously operating narrative that all other sources, where they might get the truth, cannot be trusted.

And the broad-base, continuously operating narrative is powered by a political party that would wither and die if the truth were ever believed by its base. By having a vast number of constituents believe the information they manufacture, which ALWAYS happens to support their agenda, and to never believe the truth which might put that agenda out of business, gives this party tremendous, unchecked power.
This is true.

It's just that you don't apparently realise that this applies across the board. This is precisely what both sides are up to and have been ever-increasingly for years.

They both spin the truth way WAY past screaming point to support their agendas (of course they do - it's today's politics, aka the purely self-interested quest for power) and equally self-interested media vehicles - both mainstream and fringe - haven't for years bothered with dispassionate and objective reporting of actuality either. Literally EVERYTHING is spun and agenda-led. Everyone calls everyone else a liar and puts forward their own twisted or hyperbolic view of reality. Everyone demonises the "hated others" with all their might and main. There is no news any more - there's just partisan op-ed pieces masquerading as reporting.

This is not nicely distinguishable white hats vs black hats, no matter how much you'd like to believe it so. And if anyone does believe it so, then all that's happened is that they've swallowed their own side's misdirection. Hook, line and sinker. Solely because they find it more to their personal taste - i.e. it supports their existing preconceptions. Confirmation bias to the max. And so you get an ever-increasing number of what are tantamount to radicalised (or self-radicalised) jihadists from both ends of the spectrum.

Nobody's got the slightest justifiable claim on the moral high ground here. Welcome to 21st Century politics.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

The Fallen wrote:
[…]

Nobody's got the slightest justifiable claim on the moral high ground here. …


But doesn't the person claiming, "Nobody can claim the moral high ground", thereby claim the moral high ground?



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, because I of all people would simply NEVER claim to be "nobody".

Have you not read the second line of my sig quote, you unreconstructed fool?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene Goodman has become a hero in light of the attack on the US Capitol because he led insurrectionists away from an open door leading to the senate chamber, which was occupied by senators at the time.

----

People have asked about the importance of impeachment on this thread, and I have found another apparent reason for impeachment. Apparently it will prevent Trump from pardoning himself or anyone else for things connected to the Capitol attack. This means he cannot pardon anyone who was inside Capitol grounds because it would be null and void.

These people are potentially facing up to 20 years in prison.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
And the broad-base, continuously operating narrative is powered by a political party that would wither and die if the truth were ever believed by its base. By having a vast number of constituents believe the information they manufacture, which ALWAYS happens to support their agenda, and to never believe the truth which might put that agenda out of business, gives this party tremendous, unchecked power. Power which they use to direct the votes how they wish and eventually circumvent the democratic process.


Exactly--we have been warning everyone about the Democratic Party for years now, but not enough people are listening.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


Aaron Rupar @atrupar | Twitter













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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi suggests that some members of Congress may have been involved in seditious conspiracy against US gov't

House Democrats claim that the US Capitol attack was aided by insiders
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning Signs Before the Capitol Attack
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Democrats are pushing unfounded conspiracy theories and that is ok?

How soon til the truth and Reconciliation hearings start?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Cardinal Christoph Schönborn: What a warning against the power of lies!

Quote:



Yesterday, Crux reported on the strong words of Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schönborn in response to the rioters at the US Capitol in Washington on January 6. Here is our translation* of his full January 15 statement:

Quote:
I can’t get the images of the Storming of the Capitol in Washington out of my mind. How did this happen? Five people are dead, so many injured, offices were destroyed, and the rule of law trampled upon. Now some are suggesting that it was an evil “mob” from the dregs of civilized humanity. No, they weren’t! They were seduced and lied to. They were pummeled (with untruths and lies): that those up there, government and the legislature, stole your election. The elections were rigged. You have to fight back!

Who kept telling you this on Twitter and all kinds of channels? The (still) current, incumbent president of the most powerful country in the world! Even before the elections, he proclaimed: If I am not re-elected, it can only be election fraud. He called for a protest. At the end of this protest he said, “Go to the Capitol!”

The crowd that stormed the Capitol was falsely convinced that they were fighting the biggest electoral fraud in America’s history. Nothing justifies their violence. Even less: the lies that led to the violence. This is what happens when truth can no longer be distinguished from lies. What a warning against the power of lies!




*Translation by Deacon Clayton Nickel

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