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President Trump (Part 2)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOP Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, a supporter of the Qanon conspiracy theory movement, has ordered Trump supporters to "mobilize" in response to security measures being taken to protect Washington, DC
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi suggests that some members of Congress may have been involved in seditious conspiracy against US gov't

House Democrats claim that the US Capitol attack was aided by insiders


So I presume the purges will begin once Biden is sworn in, right? When Saddam Hussein finally seized power, he convened their Legislature then started reading a list of names. As each name got read, members of the military would walk over to that politician then walk them out of the building.

The FBI is trying to vet the members of the military who will be in attendance for Inauguration Day. Apparently now the military is also suspect, so I guess the purges will begin there, as well. We did say that any attempted insurrection will always fail without control of the military...and now the Democrats control the military.

I have news for Rep. Greene--she does not have the authority to order anyone to do anything.

edit/add: Pelosi still hasn't sent the articles over the Senate, just like they didn't last time. In two days, it won't matter--there can't be an impeachment trial for someone who is not in office. What, do they think they can retroactively remove him from office? Reality doesn't work like that. They can keep him from running for any future office, to be certain, but I doubt he was going to run again, anyway.

edit/add: moving trucks at the White House as staff members clear out their desks. Moving trucks have also been spotted at Mar-a-Lago--some of Trump's neighbors did not want him in the neighborhood and I think Melania has convinced him to move. They can't go back to New York, and I doubt Florida wants him (at least parts of it don't).

I am still waiting for her to file for divorce in a few weeks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's waiting because McConnell refused to recall the Senate from recess, and they don't return from recess until the day of the Inauguration.

They can still have a Senate trial even with Trump no longer in office. The idea is to bring in a lot of witnesses and present evidence of wrongdoing. It's about the process more than anything else, but they can bar him from future office if the Senate votes to convict him. Not only that, but he will lose privileges bestowed upon former presidents such as having a US Secret Service detail.

---

There is good reason to be suspicious of Trump loyalists within the military ranks. The FBI is legitimately concerned that Trump loyalists within the National Guard who sympathize with right-wing terrorism could go rogue and start shooting at Biden during the ceremony.

Any precaution against that should be taken, even if it's not "politically correct."

As for "purges" within Congress, there is emerging evidence of Republican members of Congress aiding and abetting the US Capitol attack. Members of Congress were giving tour guides to people who were later found to be involved in the riots just days before the attack. Large tours have been halted due to COVID-19, which makes the whole thing suspicious. Not only that, but insurrectionists had a detailed knowledge of the US Capitol that would be highly unusual for mere tourists, suggesting some inside help. Some marked Democrat offices were ignored, and obscure office locations for certain Democrats were ransacked (places that many members of Congress themselves would be unaware of).

Boebert was one of the tour guides, and on the morning of the attack she tweeted "Today is 1776 again." She also live tweeted the locations of top Democrats as they were being moved from location to location, during the attack.

Greene was also calling for Trump supporters to "mobilize," implying that they should stage another riot.

Ted Cruz and Hawley are also suspect.

Congress can expel members, and the states will simply pick replacements for expelled members from the same political party. Constituents would still get their representation, but malign members of Congress would be held accountable. I see nothing wrong here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Muslims, Trump supporters hold a violent and repressive ideology. However, only a small portion of them are terrorists, so we shouldn't conflate white nationalist terrorism with Trumpists in general, just as we shouldn't conflate Islamic terrorism with Muslims in general.

----

Capitol Insurrectionist who stole Pelosi's laptop planned to hand it over to the Russians
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
There is good reason to be suspicious of Trump loyalists within the military ranks. The FBI is legitimately concerned that Trump loyalists within the National Guard who sympathize with right-wing terrorism could go rogue and start shooting at Biden during the ceremony.

Any precaution against that should be taken, even if it's not "politically correct."


All successful insurrections begin by purging the military of everyone except loyalists, so things are proceeding as expected here. As I said, the Democrats now control the military so they will weed out anyone who does not support them.

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Congress can expel members, and the states will simply pick replacements for expelled members from the same political party. Constituents would still get their representation, but malign members of Congress would be held accountable. I see nothing wrong here.


Yes, Congress can expel members. "Malign" is an opinion to which you are entitled.

Of course you see nothing wrong here--you support the purges.


ur-Nanothnir wrote:
so we shouldn't conflate white nationalist terrorism with Trumpists in general


This is exactly what is happening right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you think the Democrats are the insurrectionists now? That's pretty hilarious, Hashi.

If the current president has a personality cult and incites people to commit acts of violence, how exactly do you propose we deal with Trump loyalists within the military? Keeping them the fuck away from the inauguration sounds reasonable because you don't know who will do something or not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
So you think the Democrats are the insurrectionists now? That's pretty hilarious, Hashi.


Who is getting rid of the "wrong" people in the military? As my example earlier inidicated, first Saddam took over the military--removing any "disloyal" members--and then he took over the Legislature.

We already have at least one Member of Congress casting doubt on the loyalty of the military to the Constitition by suggesting that they are loyal to Trump. That is not how the military works here.

Only two more days until this thread finally gets closed, once and for all.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is getting rid of them, merely excluding them from the Inauguration because of threats against Biden.

The military leadership is vetting/keeping watch. The FBI is doing the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
No one is getting rid of them, merely excluding them from the Inauguration because of threats against Biden.


Come on--you aren't that naive, are you? Even Biden's soon-to-be Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller has no credible intelligence detaling threats against Biden from military forces in Washinton, D. C.

Members of the military have already been vetted; that is part of the process when you enlist and it happens from time to time as a normal part of operations. The whole "there is an insider threat" story is just fear-mongering and conjured pretext.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've known neo-Nazis who joined the US Army, served a tour in Afghanistan, and came back to the US. They still were neo-Nazis. The Army didn't give a shit as long as they didn't get swastika tattoos.

Extremist groups actually encourage people who believe in their ideology to get military training by serving in the US military, then use their training for the extremist militia.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you don't trust the military either, hm? That's okay--as noted from my "militarization of the police" thread I don't necessarily trust law enforcement but I generally do give the military some trust.

When nothing happens on Wednesday at least we can then breathe a sigh of relief and I can close this thing. I will also be closing this thread in real time--I will attempt to stream the inauguration from here and when both Biden and Harris have been sworn in I will close this.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A question - based on a bizarre statement of Nano's above (that may well be true).

"Congress can expel members..."

I'd be most interested to hear what process is involved re this? Who gets to decide who's "malign"? (And there's a subjective value judgement if ever I've heard one). And once such a value judgement has been made, what happens next? Is there a vote and if so, who's allowed to cast their vote yea or nay?

Depending on the answers to the above, that process sounds remarkably open to abuse...

I'm also interested in your comparison mentioning Islamophobia, Nano, which is one I've often thought about drawing before. Let me throw this out there for thought.

Of course we'd all agree (as you clearly state) that the vast majority of Muslims are perfectly ordinary people.

Of course we'd also all therefore agree that it would be insanity to paint all Muslims as "terrorists" or "the forces of darkness" for example, just because of the beliefs, words and actions of an extremist fringe (again as you clearly state).

Now... just replace the word "Muslims" in the two paragraphs above with the word "Republicans". Or "Democrats" for that matter...

Perhaps my continually repeated point about the ridiculous and frankly dangerous mainstream rhetoric constantly emanating from the most senior of Pubs and Dems over the last few years (and still doing so) is starting to be acknowledged? One can but hope...

Additionally, let's consider actual Muslim extremists for a minute. What gives rise to their fanaticism? Sure in large measure, radicalising hate speech from their own side... but also the awareness of utterly unfair broad brush demonisation of all Muslims by the other side...

Which goes directly to my also much repeated conviction that both sides in the US political debate bear significant responsibility for the stark rise of fringe nutjobs within their own AND within the other side's ranks.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
A question - based on a bizarre statement of Nano's above (that may well be true).

"Congress can expel members..."

I'd be most interested to hear what process is involved re this? Who gets to decide who's "malign"? (And there's a subjective value judgement if ever I've heard one). And once such a value judgement has been made, what happens next? Is there a vote and if so, who's allowed to cast their vote yea or nay?


The House and the Senate may set their own rules for who gets censured and, ultimately, expelled. More details and the history of the process may be found here. No one is actually going to be expelled from Congress over this because Members of Congress also have First Amendment protections of Freedom of Speech and Political Association.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Likely involving evidence of wrongdoing, which wouldn't be hard for Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-CO) because she literally live-tweeted the whereabouts of Nancy Pelosi and other top Democrats WHILE the Capitol was breached. This is called aiding and abetting.

Some of them are stupid enough to leave a paper trail.

Lauren Boebert also flaunts the rules regarding weapons at the US Capitol and refuses repeatedly to walk through a metal detector.

She was also spotted by members of Congress giving tour guides to large groups (despite the ban on such due to COVID), and it is thought that people involved in the insurrection attended such tours. They had a very detailed knowledge about where certain offices were (even unmarked Democrat offices hidden within the bowels of the Capitol) that could only come from an insider.

Floor plans for the Capitol are in the public domain, but they wouldn't provide certain information that the insurrectionists knew about. They were able to attack certain areas with a surgical precision, knowing exactly what they were doing.

The office of the Senate Parliamentarian was attacked despite it not being public knowledge, and being hard to find. It is also where the Electoral College ballot boxes were stored when not in use.

Boebert even tweeted "Today is 1776 again" on the morning of the attack.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence and hard evidence that she is a huge security threat and was likely a co-conspirator. Expelling her would be justified.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
There's a lot of circumstantial evidence and hard evidence that she is a huge security threat and was likely a co-conspirator. Expelling her would be justified.


The Rules Committee starts the process then the House as a body votes on it. If that is what they choose then it's their house, so they set the rules.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
We already have at least one Member of Congress casting doubt on the loyalty of the military to the Constitition by suggesting that they are loyal to Trump. That is not how the military works here.
I would have said the same about the Capitol Police. But there were those who let the insurrectionists in, and posed for selfies. While their fellow officer was getting mortally wounded. Why is it impossible for soldiers to feel more strongly about Trump than to their sworn duty, when it happened with the police?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
We already have at least one Member of Congress casting doubt on the loyalty of the military to the Constitition by suggesting that they are loyal to Trump. That is not how the military works here.
I would have said the same about the Capitol Police. But there were those who let the insurrectionists in, and posed for selfies. While their fellow officer was getting mortally wounded. Why is it impossible for soldiers to feel more strongly about Trump than to their sworn duty, when it happened with the police?


It isn't impossible but recall that during the 90s military personnel still supported Bill as CiC even though he was cutting their funding and closing bases.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't expect it. More because I expect Military Justice would be a lot tougher than what any Capitol Police would ever face.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
I don't expect it. More because I expect Military Justice would be a lot tougher than what any Capitol Police would ever face.


That's the truth. Capitol police would probably face state jail in Maryland but soldiers would go to Federal prison.

Part of me is glad to see all the fake civility go away--truthfully, Democrats and Republicans have despised each other for decades so at least they are all finally being true to their feelings. On the other hand, it's all downhill from here.....

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