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President Trump (Part 2)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ITV News (British program) identified the woman who stole Pelosi's laptop as Riley Williams, a 22-year-old woman from Pennsylvania. The same woman was caught trying to sell the laptop to Russian intelligence.

Pardon-seeking insurrectionists claim they were following Trump's orders, which can hurt Trump's case in upcoming trial
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
A question - based on a bizarre statement of Nano's above (that may well be true).

"Congress can expel members..."

I'd be most interested to hear what process is involved re this? Who gets to decide who's "malign"? (And there's a subjective value judgement if ever I've heard one). And once such a value judgement has been made, what happens next? Is there a vote and if so, who's allowed to cast their vote yea or nay?


The House and the Senate may set their own rules for who gets censured and, ultimately, expelled. More details and the history of the process may be found here. No one is actually going to be expelled from Congress over this because Members of Congress also have First Amendment protections of Freedom of Speech and Political Association.
Thanks for the info, Hashi - but I disagree with your last paragraph. The only thing that will prevent any representative or senator from getting expelled is the fact that a 2/3rds majority vote in the relevant House is required to action this through. I don't think that the First Amendment would necessarily save anyone's bacon (see hypothetical scenario below).

Having read the Wikipedia article you linked to re this, the process of expelling a representative seems to be very similar to that of impeaching a POTUS. I have to say I was surprised.

The sole saving grace (I suppose) is indeed that as just mentioned, in order to expel someone from the HoR, a 2/3rds majority is apparently needed at the deciding vote within the House.

But I am still a little gob-smacked that the expulsion process exists at all in its present form, because it does seem potentially open to flagrant party political abuse?

As you and Wikipedia both state, the HoR can make up any rules it feels like. Again much like the impeachment of any POTUS, it can action an expulsion investigation for any reason (justified or not) and at any time it chooses. And then as stated, all that's required is a 2/3rds majority vote in the House to achieve said expulsion. According to Wikipedia, the Senate apparently follows nigh on identical rules.

Okay, hypothetical time. Surely this means that, especially given today's unbridgeable and hyperpolarised times, if either party were to achieve a 2/3rds majority in either house, then that party could simply force through the expulsion of any representatives or senators it didn't like? E.G. if they had such a majority, the Pubs could force through the expulsion of any representative they felt was too Prog Left and exactly similarly the Dems could equally force through the expulsion of any representative they felt was too Far Right, thus utterly ignoring and over-riding the stated wishes of the local electorate?

And, looking at the recent history of the last 4 years, please don't anyone try to tell me that neither political party is likely to make utterly unsubstantiated allegations or that neither party is likely to make every effort to stack whatever body or panel it possibly can in its own favour, in order to make its hold on power more secure.

As I said, surprising. The process in the UK is very different. Our members of Parliament (the closest we have to representatives) can only be forcibly removed mid-term by either their own party within Parliament or by the local party in the constituency which voted them in in the first place. That paradigm would seem a great deal more commonsensical and a great deal less possible to abuse.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Okay, hypothetical time. Surely this means that, especially given today's unbridgeable and hyperpolarised times, if either party were to achieve a 2/3rds majority in either house, then that party could simply force through the expulsion of any representatives or senators it didn't like? E.G. if they had such a majority, the Pubs could force through the expulsion of any representative they felt was too Prog Left and exactly similarly the Dems could equally force through the expulsion of any representative they felt was too Far Right, thus utterly ignoring and over-riding the stated wishes of the local electorate?


I have no doubt that if either major party ever gained an actual 2/3 majority of the House and/or Senate that there would be purges there. Thank goodness that is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. We do have a process of recall elections here but that almost never happens above the city level.

Ms. Williams will now be charged with espionage in addition to theft, as she should be. She probably did not realize that Ms. Pelosi's laptop most likely contained GPS locating technology, allowing Congress' IT to track it in real time.

Pardon-seeking insurrectionists can claim whatever they want but that does not make their claims true.

We are probably 36 hours away from finally being done with this topic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to confess, the idea of joining the Trump movement is horribly appealing, if only to vent all the energy that built up in me during the Storm Area 51 incident...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no "Trump movement" any more--he is through and his more fanatical followers will disperse and disappear back into the shadows where they belong.

Storm Area 51--I vaguely remember that happening.

edit/add: Mike Pence will not be attending the little get-together being held to wish Trump well on his last trip from the White House down to Mar-a-Lago. Trump definitely knows how to do one thing very well: burn bridges.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mitch McConnell has turned on Trump completely, now saying that Trump told lies (seemingly referring to the allegations of election fraud) and incited violence at the Capitol.

It seems that he will vote to convict. It seems that he gave GOP senators permission to vote to convict.

I guess he saw this as the Republican Party's ticket out of crazyland.

12 national guards were removed from the inauguration due to their connection with far-right extremist groups.

Also, did Trump pardon any insurrectionists? It seems that today's pardons have been pretty tame.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any insurrectionists yet. Nor himself. We'll see if either happens. Of course, there's debate on whether or not he can pardon himself. If he does, I guess it could be for the SCOTUS to decide if it's valid?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Mitch McConnell has turned on Trump completely, now saying that Trump told lies (seemingly referring to the allegations of election fraud) and incited violence at the Capitol.

It seems that he will vote to convict. It seems that he gave GOP senators permission to vote to convict.

I guess he saw this as the Republican Party's ticket out of crazyland.


Agreed...but will enough of them vote to convict? The vote is hollow either way, except as a possible measure of making sure he can't run for office again (which wasn't going to happen in any event).

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
12 national guards were removed from the inauguration due to their connection with far-right extremist groups.


Were they really connected to far-right extremist groups of were they simply token sacrifices to make the FBI look like it was doing its job and to calm people's nerves? I suspect the latter--had they actually been connected to such groups they would have been weeded out before now.

As noted, to help facilitate a successful takeover the military must be purged first and loyalists installed into positions of command.

*************

Although the Constitution does not expressly forbid a sitting POTUS from self-pardoning, the consensus has always been that such a thing is not possible because it allows for far too much abuse of power. If it were allowed, a POTUS could break any Federal law they wanted to at any time then issue themselves a pardon by signing a piece of paper. No, it doesn't work that way.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not actually removed for right-wing ties, (or not all of them), but apparently because of questionable behaviour / commnts which throws their impartiality into question.

No doubt some of the military etc. falls into his camp, but like others, I assume it to be a minority.

Also, agree most of the pardons were pretty much traditional, although a few fraudsters and embezzlers etc. got one as well.

Apparently he's been strongly advised not to pardon any of the "insurrectionists" or himself and his family.

(Anyway, could you pardon somebody that has not been convicted of something yet? Wouldn't that be more granting an immunity? (Which the power does not (I think?) encompass?)

TheFallen wrote:
I agree with Av - it would be hugely beneficial for there to be a new US political party (or even more than one) which moderates would feel comfortable supporting.


Personally, I think it needs to be the other way round. Moderates should continue supporting the party they have always supported. What they need are some fringe parties to draw off the extremists. Also would expose more accurately the size of extremist bases.

--A
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the crazy Trump supporters can join the National Justice Party. They'd fit right in.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, not himself, his family, or the insurrectionists who have been arrested.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Personally, I think it needs to be the other way round. Moderates should continue supporting the party they have always supported. What they need are some fringe parties to draw off the extremists. Also would expose more accurately the size of extremist bases.

--A


There are plenty of smaller, third parties people in the United States (or parts of it) that people may join. Some of them are just weird--the Rent is Too Damn High Party--and some of them are exceedingly fringe.

Technically, Trump could not have pardoned anyone connected to what happened on the 6th if it got officially classified as "insurrection". Doesn't matter now--he is only hours away from being out of office.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump is now no longer officially POTUS.

Since I am mod, I get the last word before closing this thread. You are currently hearing Democrats talking about "reconciliation". Reconciliation? Are you kidding? We just spent four years of listening to Democrats contest the results of an election, Stormy Daniels, Russiagate, and impeachment. We listened to people from the Left excoriate someone who dared defeat their chosen queen and call him "Not My President" when they weren't pulling a Robert De Niro and saying quite plainly "fuck Donald Trump". We listened to them call him and anyone who supported him "racist", "xenophobic", and "white supremacist". We listened to them accuse a Supreme Court nominee of being a rapist with no evidence whatsoever.

Reconciliation? That is bullshit. There is no unity and there is no reconciliation. Now they want to "deprogram" anyone who supported Trump, they want a "ministry of truth" and they want to silence voices which do not conform to the Leftist ideals they promote. I don't think so.

Dissenting opinions do not equal misinformation. Dissenting political views do not equal treason. If Democrats want unity and reconciliation now then they should have fucking wanted it four years ago. They chose it.

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