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Punish or Pardon Trump?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:03 pm    Post subject: Punish or Pardon Trump? Reply with quote

This is something I have been thinking about lately. There have been valid arguments from both sides on the issue of what to do with Donald Trump now that he's no longer President of the United States.

Republicans say that Donald Trump should not be convicted in a Senate trial because "it will further divide the country." Some Democrats are saying that it "doesn't make sense" because he's no longer in office.

On the other hand, it is feared by many that not convicting Trump in the Senate is the same as not holding him accountable for wrongdoing. They fear that this sets the legal precedent that the President is above the law, even after leaving office.

It is important for the high office of the presidency to not be a position in which lawlessness can thrive. If sedition is not worthy of punishment, then what is? Couldn't the President film a live broadcast of him raping an underaged teenager? What about murder? How depraved could future presidents become if they are above the law?

It is also important for the country to save face. The world is watching what we do, and the actions that we take can either reinforce or undermine the credibility of democratic systems of government. It can affect our status as a world leader, which can in turn affect our national security and general prosperity as a nation.

I present another option for resolving this crisis: Biden could pardon Donald Trump. In United States v. Burdick, the Supreme Court ruled that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt, acceptance a confession of it." This would mean that Trump is essentially admitting guilt should he accept a pardon from Biden for his role in the insurrection (inciting an insurrection). This would acknowledge that Trump could be punished for wrongdoing, but he is being spared punishment. Thus the former president isn't being declared above the law in that respect. It would allow us to save face by not having to have a Senate trial in which Republicans are likely to prevent a supermajority required for conviction (which could cause the problems I outlined above regarding setting dangerous precedents). It would likely also help promote healing as a country.

What are your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit that Biden probably would consider issuing a pardon to Trump--if I recall he was already a policitian when Ford pardoned Nixon and so the precedent is there--but truthfully I don't think he will. I suspect the Senate will have to move forward with a trial. No, they cannot remove him from office but they could remove his ability to hold any future political office and that is probably the best way forward. This would show that Congress is serious about reigning in wild behavior and allows the Republicans to save face by not having one of their own be the first removed from office.

Beyond that, I would not keep dogging on Trump, even for criminal charges. He is out of office and will probably have to move away from Mar-a-Lago--his neighbors don't want him. Just let him be a bitter, old private citizen who happens to be an ex-POTUS. Unlike most ex-Presidents, Trump will not get a speaker circuit--no one will pay him money to come give a speech like they do for the others.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think the Senate will actually convict Trump, then? It seems Mitch McConnell might be okay with it, but politicians like him can change their minds like the wind.

Given the nature of what happened, I am honestly worried about what would happen if not enough Republicans vote to convict Trump. It would be pretty damaging to the country for numerous reasons I have already touched on briefly.

Biden pardoning Trump would get it over with, allowing the government to focus on the pandemic and economic recovery.

However, I suspect that I am probably in the minority (of people who voted for Biden) who actually thinks that a pardon wouldn't be such a bad idea. Many if not most liberals are against it because Trump seems to be getting away with it if he was pardoned. Trump could also refuse the pardon, something that wouldn't be too surprising either.

Beyond being good anti-GOP propaganda if the GOP still fails to convict Trump in the Senate, I don't see how this benefits anybody.

On an unrelated note, it seems that a "civil war" inside the GOP is breaking out between Trump loyalists and traditional GOP politicians (who are still considered leaders of the party).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Do you think the Senate will actually convict Trump, then?


Yes, because it is safe to convict him now. Technically Trump would not be the first POTUS removed from office since he is no longer in the office but it would send a strong message to anyone coming to Washington, D. C. in the future thinking that they are going to "shake things up" by coloring outside the lines. It will also prevent him from seeking any future political office--they can get rid of him without really getting their hands dirty. Also, by voting to convict they can indicate that they, also, are turning their backs on him so as to distance themselves from his legacy (which actually would not have been that bad had he just settled his ass down after losing the election).

The problem with Biden trying to issue a pardon is as you state--there are far too many Democrats who would see it as "Trump getting away with everything". Pelosi, herself, just suggested today that Trump could be an accessory to murder because of the Capitol riot. She would not be happy about a pardon--and she was definitely in D. C. when Ford pardoned Nixon.

I thought the Democrat Party was going to split last summer over the whole Sanders/Biden thing when Biden won all those Super Tuesday delegates. Now it looks like the Republican Party is the one that is going to split. A lot of those who never liked Trump may jump to the Libertarians, in which case the country switches from a blue/red dichotomy to a blue/yellow one. The hardcore Trump loyalists are the minority; they were putting all their chips on him but the roulette wheel came up blue, not red.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think a pardon is such a bad idea. It's not like it's a badge of honor.


I think there are groups who would pay Trump to speak. Not sure they have enough money for him. It would be very telling if he accepts, though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
I don't think a pardon is such a bad idea. It's not like it's a badge of honor.


I think there are groups who would pay Trump to speak. Not sure they have enough money for him. It would be very telling if he accepts, though.


Giuliani was apparently charging $2m to get a pardon from Trump. lol

Maybe Trump will charge by the word. Nickel and dime people who request him to speak at their events.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tricky question for the Dems is how much of a schism will be caused within the Dems themselves by any decision taken on Trump?

The fringe Left and those driven by frankly obsessional hate (e.g. Pelosi and Schumer) will want to see Trump crucified to the max, far more on the grounds of ideology, rather than those of morality or justice. More reasoned and more pragmatic heads within the upper echelons of the Dems will disagree.

It'll be interesting to see which way this one plays out...

Separately, Pelosi just can't stop, can she? She's obsessed beyond belief. She's so reminiscent of one of those wizened and embittered crones sat knitting at the foot of the guillotine in late 18th Century Paris, vindictively croaking for blood and fanatically cackling with ill-repressed malevolent glee as every decapitated aristocratic head hit the basket.

Pelosi is so far past her "sell by" date that the Dems urgently need to retire her. I can't believe that anyone within Dem High Command sees her as anything other than a liability these days - she's certainly no asset.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impeach him.

Impeach him

Impeach him
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The House already did that. Pelosi hasn't sent the articles over to the Senate yet.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm undecided. Very Happy

Couple things...Impeachment and conviction will, as I understand, not in themselves prevent him from holding office in the future. That requires a separate vote.

And yes, my god, it's like she can't see anything else...she's like Ahab to Trump's Moby Dick. Very Happy

As mentioned elsewhere, I do think impeachment is a waste of time. Maybe it will send a message, but is it a message anybody is going to care about apart from the bittereinders on each side?

However, that's not the same as not punishing him. My ideal solution is to vote only on invoking the 14th Amendment.

That will send a message and punish him right in the ambition. Hell, invoke it for everybody known to have been involved who currently holds or then held office.

Carrying on with an impeachment now not only seems...vindictive, given he is no longer in office, but will keep the spotlight on him.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can prevent him from holding future office with a simple majority vote after convicting him in the senate trial.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cannot unite the nation by forgiving and forgetting the bad actors that worked to divide us, as this only incentivizes further divisive acts.

Trump should be punished because he was criminal. He would not be punished for having certain opinions, believing certain things, or promoting a certain political agenda. He would be punished for being a criminal.

There's nothing divisive about punishing a criminal.

The people saying he is being punished for having certain opinions, believing certain things, or promoting a certain political agenda -- those are the ones fostering divisiveness.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
You cannot unite the nation by forgiving and forgetting the bad actors that worked to divide us, as this only incentivizes further divisive acts.

Trump should be punished because he was criminal. He would not be punished for having certain opinions, believing certain things, or promoting a certain political agenda. He would be punished for being a criminal.

There's nothing divisive about punishing a criminal.

The people saying he is being punished for having certain opinions, believing certain things, or promoting a certain political agenda -- those are the ones fostering divisiveness.


I am all for punishing Trump, but what happens if the senate doesn't convict Trump because we couldn't get 17 Republicans on board?

At least with a pardon it is an easy way to save face without risking the possibility of Republicans failing to support conviction in the senate. If we fail to convict Trump in the Senate, it doesn't just make Republicans look bad. It makes the entire country look bad because what he did was so blatant.

With a pardon, Trump is admitting guilt by accepting it. Of course, he could just decline the pardon.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wf, although I absolutely agree with you in principle, in practice and in the brutal light of pragmatism, I may not.

I've cited the potential reasons as to why in the "President Biden" thread currently mentioning this specific topic.

Av - hats off to you. Pelosi as Captain Ahab to Trump's Moby Dick is a comparison of sheer unparalleled genius. So much so that I wish I'd thought of it - and I almost never say that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let the Republicans derail punishing an insurrectionist then.

They are clearly protecting a criminal because of his party. THAT is the divisive action. (Regardless of how they spin it otherwise.)

History has whacked us over the head so many times with the evidence that forgiving acts of inhumanity is forgetting acts of inhumanity is encouraging more acts of inhumanity that this should no longer be considered a viable option by anyone with a brain.

IN FACT, the whole topic of forgiving Trump is designed to put Democrats on the spot about it, and is in-and-of-itself a political move designed to encourage divisiveness. Forgive Trump? Piss of Dems. Punish Trump? Piss of Reps.

The way out is to remind people: punishing criminals is just, and therefore is not divisive by any measure.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually think you're viewing it wrong.

If the Dems do bring impeachment action against Trump to the Senate (a thing which in and of itself is divisive, regardless of whether just or not), I am absolutely sure that, when called to vote on it, any Pub senator should absolutely vote in favour of it. If Pubs vote against it, then that would be doubling down on an act that is already divisive.

What's interesting to me is that Biden is clearly (and IMHO very sensibly) distancing himself from this, basically saying "That's a matter exclusively for Pelosi".
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations Nano, you've co-opted my idea from two weeks ago.

As I said then, it's the smartest way through this. There's no crime that can be proven, either in the Senate or in a criminal court (breathless pearl-clutching from extremists be damned).

Joe Biden is POTUS. We have a crippled economy to deal with. Wasting time further ripping the nation apart serves no one.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The way out is to remind people: punishing criminals is just, and therefore is not divisive by any measure.


For which crime(s) should be prosecuted? Which court will have jurisdiction? What if the trial ends with a "not guilty" verdict?

I am not saying "don't prosecute him" but first we have to figure who will do it, what the charges are, and where the case will be tried. No, I don't have the answers to those questions, either.

After that, we have to consider the long-term precedent being set: become POTUS, get some political enemies, leave office, your political enemies arrest you and bring you to trial. Do we want to go down that path?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no charges other than Orange Man Bad, and his type doesn't care about precedent. He can't grok that there will ever be anything other than Benevolent Leader (D) in office.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
There are no charges other than Orange Man Bad, and his type doesn't care about precedent. He can't grok that there will ever be anything other than Benevolent Leader (D) in office.


A trial will also keep Trump fresh in everyone's minds for however long the trial takes. Apparently it was not enough to defeat him in an election; no, he must also be publicly arrested, charged with crimes, publicly tried, publicly found guilty--isn't it interesting that we already know the verdict in such a case? what are the odds?--and his punishment must be some form of public humiliation instead of mere prison.

Apparently he did not simply win back in 2016, he somehow personally violated all of them in some unspeakable manner. Why else would they have taken pictures of themselves with likenesses of his disembodied head, publicly talked about wanting to punch/stab/run him over, put on a production of Julius Ceasar where the character of Ceasar wears a suit and has wild, unkepmt orange hair, etc.? Democrats did not even despise Nixon that much.

Trump has already been punished--nothing has an effect on that man as strong as failure, and losing an election that he could have won is definitely a failure. The American people told him "you're fired".

Pelosi is still sitting on the articles of impeachment. They have the votes in the Senate to remove his ability to run for future office, so what more does she want?

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