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anyone remember the griffin?
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Bahgoon_The_Unbearabl
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: anyone remember the griffin? Reply with quote

At the battle of Soaring Woodhelivin, there was a griffin, do you remember?

If not mistaken, wasn't that the first and last flying beast in the Chronicles?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

1) Yes.

2) Unless a free-floating, full-torso, vaporous apparition counts, then "yes".
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one thread about griffins here. Including Donaldson's comments on the subject.

Why were the griffin absent in TPTP?.

This should probably have been posted in the First and Second Chronicles forum.

(This is help, not criticism.)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Kevin Landwaster gave the First Ward to the Giants.
Didn't he give the Seventh Ward to the Bloodguard!
The Elohim were also given a Ward, Weird or Wyrd.

The Griffin was likely Drool Rockworm and Lord Foul's plan to stop the Defender's finding a Ward, ie the destruction of Soaring Woodhelven.

The Second Ward might have been given to the Ramen before thier expulsion from the Land, and hidden in the Catacombs by brave Kelenbrahbanal.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Kevin did not give wards to either the Bloodguard or Elohim. And the 7th was Spoiler:
Amok
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
How so?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
That is covered in The Illearth War.

Nor do I believe Kelenbrahbanal was involved in the presence of the Second Ward in the Mount Thunder catacombs. Nowhere do we see the Ranyhyn venturing into subterranean spaces.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's because you lack insight, SD.

Savor Dam wrote:
Nor do I believe Kelenbrahbanal was involved in the presence of the Second Ward in the Mount Thunder catacombs. Nowhere do we see the Ranyhyn venturing into subterranean spaces.


Spoiler:
whatever
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Kelenbhrabanal (note the spelling), died before there were Ramen. The Ramen fought alongside Kevin. When he knew he couldn't win, Kevin came up with the whole plan of the Wards. So Kelenbhrabanal was dead before there were Wards.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bahgoon_The_Unbearabl wrote:
At the battle of Soaring Woodhelivin, there was a griffin, do you remember?

If not mistaken, wasn't that the first and last flying beast in the Chronicles?


Hello Bahgoon_The_Unbearabl, and a warm welcome to Kevinswatch.
Sorry for the argy-bargy, sometimes it can be like pulling teeth around here.

Anyway, do you remember the giraffe given to Thomas Covenant outside Revelstone at the dawn of the quest for the Staff of Law? It too had wings.
Which demonstrates that Stephen Donaldson has a keen sense of humour.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lose track of whether y'all are being funny or not...

Anyway, Lord Foul's army in TIW had griffins with it when it marched on the Lords.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bahgoon_The_Unbearabl wrote:
At the battle of Soaring Woodhelivin, there was a griffin, do you remember?

If not mistaken, wasn't that the first and last flying beast in the Chronicles?


In some far flung way I think of Thomas Covenant's mustang, Dura Fairflank, as having the capacity for flight ...

... something to do with 'the Legend of Berek Halfhand' (the arris tapestry), Douglas Fairbanks' 1924 film The Thief of Baghdad, (magic carpet), and the fact that 'The Land' happens to be a place of high fantasy.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always assumed the last griffins were destroyed by Carroil Wildwood's power when Jehannum Fleshharrower's army went into Garroting Deep. After that time, we never hear of them.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this may have more to do with Donaldson's regret than any in-story reason.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
The *real* reason that Lord Foul doesn't develop griffins as an air force is that I was ashamed of having intruded one into the story in the first place. *That,* I believed then, and still believe, was a failure of imagination. I should have invented a creature instead of borrowing one from standard mythology. Well, I didn't have any better ideas at the time. But the griffin's presence always bothered me, so I avoided relying on it later in the story.

(10/13/2010)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha, when the mechanics are revealed... Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think that this may have more to do with Donaldson's regret than any in-story reason.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
The *real* reason that Lord Foul doesn't develop griffins as an air force is that I was ashamed of having intruded one into the story in the first place. *That,* I believed then, and still believe, was a failure of imagination. I should have invented a creature instead of borrowing one from standard mythology. Well, I didn't have any better ideas at the time. But the griffin's presence always bothered me, so I avoided relying on it later in the story.

(10/13/2010)


Well, of course, the author's decision is always the real reason, but that makes a loyal reader want to come up with an in-story reason for why the griffins disappeared, to preserve consistency. And having an explanation that Caerroil Wildwood destroyed the last of the griffins works just fine for that purpose.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but it's the reasoning behind the author's decision I think tht makes it interesting. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

I think it's a bit unclear exactly why Donaldson felt that Griffons did not "fit". We only knew it had something to do with the fact that they were borrowed from other mythology.

One can immediately write this off as a sort of authorial pride. He wanted to be more inventive and not really on what was previously invented. At one point, he calls griffins "a failure of imagination".

But I think it's a mistake to think it's that. Or only that.

Because in the first Chronicles, Donaldson was carefully managing that thin, blurred line between dream and real. Everything that came from our mundane world into the Land was highly scrutinized by Donaldson so as to maintain the balance he desired. Especially Hile Troy.

So, as I see it, Donaldson's concern may have been more about whether or not griffins provided evidence that the Land really was a dream. Or was not really a dream.

At another point, he calls griffins "a tactical error". I think the general nature of this tactical error is in weakening the dream/real paradox, at least in his view.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys.

As mod of The Summonsing, I have a quick off topic but on point question. i.e., should I move this thread to The First and Second Chrons forum?

As I have stated previously, I have no problem with off topic discussion here; I've veered off topic many times myself. And, IMO it's nice to have a topic like this here in The Summonsing; I feel it's kind of an intro to n00bs as to the type of discussion which goes on in other areas of the Watch.

However...

I also believe that many Donaldson oriented users may not visit The Summonsing. As such, perhaps being in this forum may be limiting other responses to the topic.

What say y'all?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Menolly, I guess it shouid probably be moved to that forum.
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