Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Capital Punishment
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank
View previous topic :: View next topic  

The Death Penalty is:
A Deterrent
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
State-Sanctioned Murder
40%
 40%  [ 14 ]
Justifiable
31%
 31%  [ 11 ]
A Waste of Time
11%
 11%  [ 4 ]
Other -- Please Explain
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 35

Author Message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60097

Thanks: 74
Thanked 193 Times in 189 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37495 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:56 pm    Post subject: Capital Punishment Reply with quote

Interested to hear your opinions on this.

At the moment, my own coutry has no death penalty, but there is a significant campaign to re-introduce it, in the assumption that it will act as a deterrent to the large amount of crime we are experiencing.

Does it/will it/could it work?
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No... for several reasons; first, we can't be sure the person who is convicted of being guiltly is in fact guiltly. I mean if we had this in England, plenty of innocent people would have died.

Secondly, And I feel strongly about this, no-one has the right to decide whether someone lives or dies... that a persons life hangs upon decisions of others astonishes me; how can anyone be so closed minded?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60097

Thanks: 74
Thanked 193 Times in 189 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37495 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make an excellent point there Darth, in asking how we can be sure. I think it's probably one of the most important aspects in terms of not having a Death Penalty.

However, do you mean that there is nothing that a person can do that would justify the state killing them?

Surely a person who takes the life of another doesn't deserve to keep his own?

--Avatar
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends how he takes it... I mean look at the The US and British army, they're paid to kill people in wars. (And before you all say, I know that they're not actually paid to kill people, but to do the jobs that they're sent, but regardless, they kill people) Should they be killed Avatar? Should much of the US army be killed by the State?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 24205

Thanks: 76
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
11876 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have mixed feelings about DP. Considering what people are capable of these days Iíd have to confess that there are instances where I couldnít imagine running the risk of letting certain people loose in the streets to re commit heinous crimes. I think the rules regarding use of DP should be restricted to cases where the crime has incontrovertible evidence (catching some jerk red handed or some other instance where it is obvious to everyone that the crime has indeed be committed by the individual). In other cases where there is strong evidence but still some doubt I canít justify the use of DP. At the end of the day I wish that there were no crimes to inspire the use of such extreme measures. How about we put the worst convicted criminals into a persistent but reversible coma just in case we screwed up and it is found later that we nabbed the wrong guy. How about a penal island in the south Pacific that is prone to typhoons and earthquakes? What about a moon prison? Banishment to the Negative zone? I know, cruel and unusual punishment. Surely there is imagination and intellect available to solve the problem of how to protect the population at large from homicidal sociopaths without the use of capital punishment. Unfortunately I donít know of a good answer and that may be one of the reasons we still employ DP.
_________________
Quote:
"If you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?"




"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How about we put the worst convicted criminals into a persistent but reversible coma just in case we screwed up and it is found later that we nabbed the wrong guy


That would be as bad as killing them. And though reversible, we can never give bad the time that the innocent lost.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 24205

Thanks: 76
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
11876 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darthina wrote:
Quote:
How about we put the worst convicted criminals into a persistent but reversible coma just in case we screwed up and it is found later that we nabbed the wrong guy


That would be as bad as killing them. And though reversible, we can never give bad the time that the innocent lost.



If you can devise a way of preventing crime investigators from sometimes making mistakes and also find a way to keep juries from mistakenly finding an innocent defendent guilty in some cases, I will promote you to King of the Planet. We need to be as correct as is humanly possible. Unfortunately being human means that we are falible and make the odd mistake. I don't really have an answer for you, Darth. If I did I'd be King of the Planet.
_________________
Quote:
"If you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?"




"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12922

Thanks: 85
Thanked 58 Times in 56 Posts


3731 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm against the death penalty, except in extreme cases like war crimes. For one, this would put the US in line with the Geneva Conventions.

If the death penalty is used, I believe it should only be when there is absolutely no doubt of the crime and only if there is no hope of reform.
_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.Ē
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
duchess of malfi
Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies

Female
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 11104

Thanks: 37
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts

Location: Michigan, USA
12030 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck1 Foul Duck1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caer just expressed my own views well. It should be reserved for the most heinous of war crimes (mass murder of civilians, death camp atrocities and the like), and then only with great amounts of evidence...though even then, I wonder if it would be a deterrent. Would Nazi guards have acted any differently if they had known they would someday be put to death for their participation in killing of so many innocent people? After all, genocide, sadly, still goes on today. Sad

The state of Illinois put a moratorium on executions, as so many of the inmates on death row were found to be innocent of the crimes they had been convicted. Shocked Shocked Shocked
_________________
Love as thou wilt.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
taraswizard
Haruchai


Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 514

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Redlands, california
265 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:59 pm    Post subject: Death penalty Reply with quote

I selected wast of time, cause it was the only choice that fit my POV. Contrary to what most might think, I am not philosophically opposed to capital punishment. However, it's a very imperfect rememdy to horrofic circumstances (that's not quite what I am thinking but it's best I have right now). As long as the administration of justice remains tied to political processes, and I do not just mean where judges stand for elections, cause even where judges are solely appointed to the bench, their selection is based on a political process, all justice will be imperfect.

Furthermore, the potential miscarriage in capital cases has to horrify almost anyone. Thanks Duchess for identifying the situation in the state where I currently reside. Illinois most famous case is Rolando Cruz. Trip down history lane. In the very early 1980s Jeanette Nicario, 11 yr. old staying home sick from school alone in her own home, was sexually assaulted in her own home and murdered. Her home was in the overwhelming white suburbs of Naperville, Ill. Subsequent a young Latino man, Rolando Cruz of Aurora, Ill., was arrested for petty vandalism (I think), using the testimony of a professional jail house snitch, the States Attorney for DuPage County (the county for both Naperville and Aurora), obtained a conviction for Ms Nicario's murder on Mr. Cruz after several retrials and oncovering evidence which is fairly unambiguous, Mr. Cruz obtained his freedom in 1998. During the rehearings of the case egrigous misconduct on the part of the case investigators and the state's prosecutors was revealed.
_________________
Allan Rosewarne
taraswizard Essence of Amber
Buffy fans Chicago
W/T they are forever
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Creator
Maker of Worlds

Ranyhyn
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 4862

Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts

Location: Castle Rock, CO
720 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lord's Staff


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is an emotional issue to many. I think it can be justified in certain situations. And while I might not have the moral right to judge - I know if someone attacked and tortured / killed my children or wife or others that I love - I'd want them DEAD!
_________________
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
The Leper Fairy
The Loch Ness Imposter


Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 2795

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts


3015 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I could justify the taking of a life...
_________________


Pie and Cake
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Baradakas
Lord of Muffins

Male
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 1896

Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Des Moines, Iowa
199 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lomillialor1 I Love KW1 Soaring Woodhelvin


PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the evidence was irrefutable, and the person in question had committed murder, I believe they should die. However, if any reasonable doubt exists, I believe that being dropped off on a deserted island would be fair, with the understanding that if they escaped alive, thier crime would be forgiven. (Said island should be at least 25 miles out to sea)


Just my opinion.
_________________
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."

"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"

His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
matrixman
cheek turner


Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 8361

Thanks: 6
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts


8348 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an extremely emotional issue, and it has to be, when we're dealing with death, or having the legal power to order the death of another human being. I basically agree with the view that the death penalty should only be invoked when there is no question of the guilt of the individual and there is no hope of reform.

To put it another way: why should my taxes be used by the state to feed, clothe and shelter a cold-blooded killer who shows no remorse for his crime? This killer would in essence be taking advantage of finite state resources that should be better spent--and urgently spent--on those who can be rehabilitated.

Having said that, could I stand face to face with a person about to be executed? I don't honestly know. But in the case of a truly remorseless murderer, perhaps it's only fitting that such cold contempt for human life should be answered by dispassionate justice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60097

Thanks: 74
Thanked 193 Times in 189 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37495 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting responses folks, and many valid points. As you may have noticed, I never got around to explaining my own position on the question.

On the whole, I think that, as many of you have said, there are certain instances where it is justified. When it serves the purpose of preventing someone from going out and doing the same thing again.

However, Duchess raised the point that is perhaps the most important to me. It is not effective as a deterrent. Nobody, when committing a crime, expects that they will be caught, let alone executed. Thus, potential punishment is not a factor when the crime is being planned. I very much doubt that anyone has said "I might be caught and executed if I do this, so I won't."

My favourite example of Capital punishment's ineffectiveness as a deterrent is taken from England, in the 19th century. Back then, pretty much anything, from stealing a loaf of bread on up could be punished by hanging. When a pick-pocket was hanged, all the other pick-pockets in London made a point of attending the execution. Not to bid a fond farewell to a compatriot, but to pick the pockets of the spectators.

However, we must note that by far the majority of murders are "once-off" killings, in the style of crimes of passion, or crimes for personal gain and the like. It's highly unlikely that these people will ever commit another crime. In my "perfect system", punishment would consist of denying any personal gain from this sort of crime, carrying out restitution, in the style of the old concept of "Blood-Price", and perhaps counselling, monitoring, and community service. A second offence however, would mean exectution, with no possibility of appeal after guilt has been established.

I agree that evidence would have to be overwhelming, but on the other hand, I couldn't accept any "legal trickery" to free people who were patently guilty.

Crimes which did not stem from these "once-off" motives though, and which have a resultantly higher chance of repeats, (obviously assuming that they are the "horrific" sort, like rape, etc.) should also be punishable by death.

I pretty much like Baradakas's idea, although the island should be far more remote, and as MatrixMan said, we wouldn't be spending our taxes on them, and our prisons would be less crowded.

I will always dispute the right of the state to kill people, but on the other hand, there are people who do not deserve life, and how can we tacitly condone allowing someone to live who has deliberately "stolen" the life of someone else?

It's a tough question.

--Avatar
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creator wrote:
I know this is an emotional issue to many. I think it can be justified in certain situations. And while I might not have the moral right to judge - I know if someone attacked and tortured / killed my children or wife or others that I love - I'd want them DEAD!


As would I. In fact, i'd probably try my best to murder them myself.

Listen... Waste of Time also is an option I share... I mean what's it going to do? Teach the person being killed to never kill again? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60097

Thanks: 74
Thanked 193 Times in 189 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37495 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darthina wrote:
Listen... Waste of Time also is an option I share... I mean what's it going to do? Teach the person being killed to never kill again? Confused


I agree with this too, although it would obviously teach that person not to kill, I'm thinking that it doesn't teach anybody else not to do it either.

And your earlier point about the army was a good one too. I once read that if you kill one man, you're a murderer, but if you kill a million, you're a conqueror. There's also that Mony Python skit, were the blood-covered red-coat is ranting about how, if he kills someone at home, he'll be hung, but when he kills people as a soldier, he'll be given a medal.

Is it merely a matter of degree?

--Avatar
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. Why the double standard? It seems we only punish when it suits us...we don't stick by our laws. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 60097

Thanks: 74
Thanked 193 Times in 189 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
37495 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The laws only exist for the people who follow them. The people who make them don't particularly care about it.

Privilege=Private Law

--A
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Revan
Don


Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 14284

Thanks: 13
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts


1540 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. I mean there's this hostage in Iraq right now begging to be freed... Asking the prime-minister personally... but the Government doesn't care.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13  Next
Page 1 of 13

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch