Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Surely Linden has served Despite...
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Runes of the Earth
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Glaive
Stonedownor


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 34

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


6 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:50 pm    Post subject: Surely Linden has served Despite... Reply with quote

...Anyone not having read the book turn back now; don't want no bitching that you weren't warned.

On the first read-through, were any of you thinking that Linden and Company going back in time to retrieve the Staff of Law was a BAD thing?
OK,I can see Linden's reasoning, "Anele lost the Staff of Law 3 and a half millenia ago, I'm able to travel in time using the caesures and bring it back to the present."

That was the basic premise; yet, surely she should of realised that she would be basically removing the Staff from the Land for 3.5 millenia...in my mind, she should of located the Staff in the past, and hidden it in such a way only she and her companions would know about and then returned to their 'present' and 'located' it again...Surely, the lack of the Staff is what allowed Foul to gain a new toe-hold in the Land.

I'm looking at this purely from before she flipped through the Fall; Esmer is the big block to my question...if he hadn't arrived Linden could of cured the Waynhim guarding the Staff, said basically, "Keep up the good work, I'll see you in 3500 years" and left...Esmer appears to be betrayer and redeamer...bit like Covenant really. Evil or Very Mad [/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae


Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 19356

Thanks: 100
Thanked 103 Times in 99 Posts


14252 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Foul Duck1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yikes!!!!!!! That's an excellent point!!!! The Staff's influence removed from the Land all those millennia.... Wow! I wonder if Kevin's Dirt would not have been possible if the Staff had been there all along.
_________________
We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD

All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Edge
full of it


Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 2945

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

Location: South Africa
360 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well technically, until Linden went back to get it, it had been there all along Confused
_________________
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Glaive
Stonedownor


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 34

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


6 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but she decided that the reason it couldn't be found was that she had *already* gone back to retrieve it...a premise that if not proven false was at least ambiguous.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brinn18
Stonedownor


Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 39

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


0 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well technically the staff wasnt there, because althought Linden went back into the past from the future, the event actually occured in the past.... paradox anyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
High Lord Tolkien
Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH

Male
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 7061

Thanks: 15
Thanked 51 Times in 49 Posts

Location: Cape Cod, Mass
2985 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edge wrote:
Well technically, until Linden went back to get it, it had been there all along Confused


ARRGGHHHH......!!!!

My...brain....is.....starting.....to....hurt!!!!

Need...Capt. Kirk.... to... explain...it....all......simplified....to.....me......
Shocked
_________________
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/

[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Glaive
Stonedownor


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 34

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


6 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately it depends on what version of 'time-travel' Donaldson is using...it appears to be 'circular' or 'rubber-band', yet we haven't enough info.

Beware 'Terminator' forums...they WILL mess with your head!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14373

Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 52 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
15275 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely believe that Linden going back into the past and bringing the SoL to the present was a bad thing. There's no way that Kevin's Dirt (yet another corruption of Earthpower) could have occured in the Staff's presence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Creator
Maker of Worlds

Ranyhyn
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 4862

Thanks: 1
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts

Location: Castle Rock, CO
720 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lord's Staff


PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why Covenant told her to find the staff?

If the time-travel version SRD used has the effects of Linden's time travel and staff retrieval (Kevin's Dirt) happen before the cause (her trip in the Caesure) does that mean it was pre-ordained?

If so, it isn't her fault! (even tho I think she is whinny and annoying!)
_________________
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
CovenantJr
Lord

Male
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 12604

Thanks: 8
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

Location: North Wales
854 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Morinmoss1 New Lord1 Captains Fancy


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see SRD using the "proper" version of time travel, as I see it. That is, that anything Linden does in the past is already done, because she's already been in that location and performed that act.

As regards stashing the Staff somewhere in order to find it later - is it possible to guarantee that it would still be sitting there untouched after nearly 4000 years?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
W.B.
Elohim


Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 170

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Florida
5 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...Esmer is the big block to my question...if he hadn't arrived Linden could of cured the Waynhim guarding the Staff, said basically, "Keep up the good work, I'll see you in 3500 years" and left...Esmer appears to be betrayer and redeamer...bit like Covenant really.


It seemed that Esmer showed up at the Waynhim's hideout after he had called the caesure for Linden (i.e. he called it, she and her companions entered it, his nature demanded he do something awful since he'd done something helpful, so he went back in time to do something awful). So if Linden had said "Good job," healed the Waynhim, and left them and the staff with them before Esmer arrived, there's the possibility he would have showed up and fouled up the Waynhim or the staff...or the Waynhim could not have withstood all those years without another healing from the staff. I don't recall mention of how long the effects of her healing would last, if they continued to keep the staff.

Anyway...if she had left the staff in the care of the Waynhim, then what had happened to it when she arrived in the Land at the start of RotE? I'm guessing that's because this is following CovenantJr's "proper version" of time travel and it's not there because she traveled back in time and removed it. That seems kind of pre-ordained to me, not in a "meant to be" religious/spiritual sense, but just that there's one timeline, and in that one timeline, those were the choices that she made. She made the choice to get the staff because she deduced from its absence that she made the choice to get the staff. What do they call that in time-travel circles? Paradox...causality loop? I usually try not to think very hard about these things, to avoid headaches....

I guess Linden's potential service to Despite depends on what the ultimate cause of Kevin's Dirt turns out to be. If Linden hadn't decided to retrieve the staff, however, there's no telling whether it would have been destroyed (Esmer again?) or in some other way rendered useless. In the cosmology of TCTC do bad things sometimes have to happen as preconditions for good things?
_________________
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
-F. Scott Fitzgerald

Stephen R. Donaldson Ate My Dictionary
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CovenantJr
Lord

Male
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 12604

Thanks: 8
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

Location: North Wales
854 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Morinmoss1 New Lord1 Captains Fancy


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. wrote:
She made the choice to get the staff because she deduced from its absence that she made the choice to get the staff.

Exactly. I find it far more likely that SRD will do that, than go all Back to the Future on us Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
W.B.
Elohim


Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 170

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Florida
5 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you don't think that at the end of the book (it's a RotE AND Back to the Future spoiler!) Spoiler:
Covenant is racing to Revelstone with Jeremiah after writing Linden a letter warning her to wear a bulletproof vest?
Smile
_________________
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
-F. Scott Fitzgerald

Stephen R. Donaldson Ate My Dictionary
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Glaive
Stonedownor


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 34

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


6 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great SCOTT!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gadget nee Jemcheeta
All Fettered Up

Male
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 2039

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Location: Cleveland
403 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Oath of Peace1 Covenant's Sword and Plate Armor1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the feeling that Linden is definately doing some really really bad things... I get it more from the descriptions of her thoughts than anything. I mean, she's going into it with the idea that she'll doom the whole Land for her son. How easy is that for the despiser?
_________________
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
duchess of malfi
Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies

Female
Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 11104

Thanks: 37
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts

Location: Michigan, USA
12053 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck1 Foul Duck1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are forgetting about what Mhoram told Covenant in the Second Chrons -- that the Despisers snares are everywhere, and you can't avoid them. Smile

Sometimes people have to do what their hearts tell them is the right thing to do. Smile
_________________
Love as thou wilt.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lord Wombat
Servant of the Land


Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 9

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Texas
11 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at it this way--

Something like Kevin's Dirt couldn't happen with the Staff of Law in play.

But it did happen. Ergo, it's pretty logical for Linden to conclude the Staff is already out of action in her time.

Since things did not, in fact, change in any meaningful way on her return to the 'present', we have to conclude she did something which is already part of the timeline and doesn't make things any worse.

Now, the Demondim being brought to the present, that DOES make things worse, but she also brought the Staff of Law, which is going to be needed to stop them.


She did something dangerous, but it was logical to think it worth the risk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TincupCPG
Woodhelvennin


Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 51

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


4 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:53 am    Post subject: re.. Reply with quote

There is actually something else to consider as well. The original Staff of Law was lost for 1,000 years after the Ritual of Desecration. BUT, it was not destroyed, merely not found. It was still there upholding it's natural Law even tho it was "lost". Lord Foul came back and started messing with the Land and it's people even before the Staff was found by Drool. Clearly, the Staff and Earthpower alone are not enough to effectively combat Despite. After all, where did Lord Foul have to retreat to after the Ritual?? He was forced to take place at the very limits of the thing he hates: Earthpower. And Earthpower and the Staff of Law by themselves could not stop him. Now, I agree that Linded hosed it when she brought the Staff back from the past. (I don't like her anyways) So, it is possible and maybe even likely that Kevin's Dirt was created BY someone....and the Eartpower, without the Staff, couldn't resist it. So Kevin's Dirt grew and spread. That is not an accident. And also, so far in the very little time she has had the Staff in the present, we see it can temp restore Healthsite to people. Can it remove it altogether? I think yes! This new Staff is only limited by the frailty of the person weilding it. Avery can "see" with the Staff, so might be able to do something about it. I posted a couple of theories on this in the topic "Haruchai". Interesting
_________________
It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
native
ur-vile


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 230

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


316 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Foul has obviously watched Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey.

'Too late, evil dude. After we beat you, we went back in time and took all the bullets out of your gun' was the general thought IIRC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PitchDude
Stonedownor


Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 46

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
0 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, first off.... Run for it Marty!

Second, I have to agree - she's doing some messy stuff. Has it occurred to anyone that her sole purpose in The Land is to get back her son? There's really been no serious plan to 'oppose' or 'destroy' or 'further diminish' Lord Foul. That seems suspect to me.

With regard to the whole causality discussion, I wonder if, at the moment she vowed to NOT go back in time to 'steal' the staff, if the whole 'Kevin's Dirt' thing would have ceased to exist.

In the words of Chief O'Brian, "I hate temporal dynamics."

Jim
_________________
Only a person who has truly experienced the consequences of his/her own destructive actions is qualified to evaluate--is, indeed, capable of evaluating--his/her future actions in order to make meaningful choices between destruction and preservation. - SRD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Runes of the Earth All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch