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Bush Pushes for Gay Marriage Ban
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Plissken
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Bush Pushes for Gay Marriage Ban Reply with quote

Quote:
WASHINGTON - President Bush and congressional Republicans are aiming the political spotlight this week on efforts to ban gay marriage, with events at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue — all for a constitutional amendment with scant chance of passage but wide appeal among social conservatives.

“Ages of experience have taught us that the commitment of a husband and wife to love and to serve one another promotes the welfare of children and the stability of society,” Bush said in his Saturday radio address. “Government, by recognizing and protecting marriage, serves the interests of all.”

The president was to make further remarks Monday in favor of the amendment as the Senate opened three days of debate.

All but one of the Senate Democrats — the exception is Ben Nelson of Nebraska — oppose the measure and, with moderate Republicans, are expected to block an up-or-down vote, killing the measure for the year.

Democrats say the amendment is a divisive bow to religious conservatives, and point out that it conflicts with the GOP’s opposition to big government interference.


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13142607/

I guess we all knew this one was coming to the 'Tank again, so:

Once more with feeling - How does a Constitutional Amendment restricting one American group's choices protect the Rights of the other group (which is what the Contitution is for, guldarnit!)?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is about the last straw. Of all the things that need to be addressed, this is what he comes up with. This has a real good shot of screwing up the midterm elections for the GOP.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, give us the OS 'Pub perspective on this, Cail (mostly before I lose faith and decide that all Republicans are freedom-hating, theocratic imbeciles again). Are the (now) moderate majority voices going to remain silent on this?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pissed over this. There are so many things that are actually important (energy, taxes, manufacturing jobs, etc), he comes up with this.....

Unbelievable.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, SPEAK! Speak for your people!

(Sorry, C-Man. Didn't mean to put you on the spot.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay tuned in two weeks when a white girl is kidnapped, a distressed family considers euthenasia, somebody kills somebody else and everyone decides to care, or girls go wild. Better yet, how about a War on the 4th of July?

This will go nowhere, and they know it. Its only purpose is to grab the national spotlight, diverting it from the real issues Cail has mentioned or the lack of non-'Pub-boosting solutions thereof.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Gosh, I wish Zeph was around to weigh in on this one. His use of Caps Lock and schoolyard profanity was truely insightful.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so ashamed of this Administration.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't go quite that far LM, but I'm getting there. Going down the gay marriage road (no pun intended) is a huge mistake now.

Immigration was such a good issue, and everyone botched it. Tax reform is such a good issue, but no one will touch it. Meaningful campaign finance reform would galvanize the electorate, but no one's willing to cut their throats.....


POOOOOOOOOOOOP!
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:

POOOOOOOOOOOOP!


This makes my all-time list of 'Tank quotes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail,

I understand (and agree) with your criticisms of this Administration and its unwillingness to tackle real issues, but my shame stems more from my support of gay rights and my shock that Bush & Co. would go so far as to ban gay marriage, a civil liberty.

edit: I wouldn't call gay marriage an "unreal issue," sorry. But like you said, this motion is just a publicity stunt.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify, it's not that I don't think it's a "real issue". Quite the opposite, it's a polarizing issue. And it's one that's going to bite the GOP in the ass.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I know, I was referring to my own post - I thought I was implying that it wasn't a real issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Mhoram wrote:
Cail,

I understand (and agree) with your criticisms of this Administration and its unwillingness to tackle real issues, but my shame stems more from my support of gay rights and my shock that Bush & Co. would go so far as to ban gay marriage, a civil liberty.

edit: I wouldn't call gay marriage an "unreal issue," sorry. But like you said, this motion is just a publicity stunt.


I wouldn't go so far as to say Marriage is a civil right, but, it's certainly illegal according to my interpretation of "All Men are created equal" to give Federal Rights for Marriage, that Gays have no access to, and to further excerbate that by trying to make Gay Marriage actually illegal by law (which is a step further than simply unrecognized). The Government has no business declaring who can marry, nor what rights are provided by that declaration.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sindatur wrote:
it's certainly illegal according to my interpretation of "All Men are created equal" to give Federal Rights for Marriage, that Gays have no access to, and to further excerbate that by trying to make Gay Marriage actually illegal by law (which is a step further than simply unrecognized). The Government has no business declaring who can marry, nor what rights are provided by that declaration.

Exactly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me in this case, the biggest issue is that Bush willing to take the risk - no matter how minute - that the Senate may pass a Constitutional Amendment that restricts Rights, just so that his party has something to run on in November.

Restricting rights at the Constitutional level is just to damned dangerous to be playing with for mere political reasons.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plissken wrote:
For me in this case, the biggest issue is that Bush willing to take the risk - no matter how minute - that the Senate may pass a Constitutional Amendment that restricts Rights, just so that his party has something to run on in November.

Restricting rights at the Constitutional level is just to damned dangerous to be playing with for mere political reasons.


Well, it's not the first time he played this card either. He played it in 2000, and when it failed to pass Congress as a Federal Amendment it kicked up the sand for the 2004 election day, and became a State Amendment for 14 (I think) states. So, honestly, it really doesn't surprise me, esecially since the choir is beginning to ignore his singing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue is a straight forward civil rights issue to me. Consenting adults should be able to marry whom they please, as long as everyone is of age, sound mind, and agreeable to it.

It is just plain wrong to tell people that they cannot legally spend their lives with the willing, adult person of their choice.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To say nothing of all the side-benefits and protections that marriage provides couples - especially at the Federal level.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sindatur wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say Marriage is a civil right, but, it's certainly illegal according to my interpretation of "All Men are created equal" to give Federal Rights for Marriage, that Gays have no access to, and to further excerbate that by trying to make Gay Marriage actually illegal by law (which is a step further than simply unrecognized). The Government has no business declaring who can marry, nor what rights are provided by that declaration.
Not quite sure I agree here. The government has every business deciding who to give certain benefits to, and can decide who can enter into a legal marriage (hence no brothers and sisters, and no child brides). So yeah, not sure if I agree that it's a civil right either. But there needs to be a very, very clear deliniation between "weddings", which are a religious ceremony, and can be as exclusive or inclusive as the church in question wants, and "marriage", which is a civil and legal process.

If the government is going to grant certain benefits for a man and a woman who go through the legal process of marriage, is seems to me that there's no legal basis to deny a man and a man, or a woman and a woman those same benefits as long as the legal process and repurcussions of dissolving the legal bond are identical. IOW, if I lose half my shit by bugging out on my wife, Sin should lose half his shit if he bugs out on his spouse. Fair's fair, after all.

Back to the civil rights question....Marriage isn't really a right, is it? Sure, there are benefits to it, but by being selective with those benefits as it is, is it really discriminatory to be selective on the basis of sexual orientation? I don't know, I'm thinking out loud here.

I mean, I can't see any legal way of not including gays in the lifetime prison we straights call marriage, so how is it that the courts are overturning the state laws?

I've got to think this through more clearly, this is making my head hurt.
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